Back up gun “competitive advantage”?

[Stafford]

What if you’re shooting a match with your actual carry gun and it breaks. Then you want to switch to your regular match gun. So, let’s say you’re shooting your 365XL in CO and you have an issue and want to switch. Your “back up” for that match is your normal CO gun, an X5 Legion. The X5 obviously meets division requirements, however, it does present a competitive advantage over the 365XL in terms of capacity and recoil management. Does the X5, in this case, constitute a competitive advantage?

[Joe4d]

Doesnt matter what you or I think. Up to the RM who has no obligation to approve the change even if it isnt a competitive advantage... see the word "May".

[PhilTerry]

See rule 5.1.7.2

[Stafford]

I’m looking for an interpretation based on experience. Any RM’s out there want to chime in?

 

Here’s an article that gives some insight to the rule(s) on the subject.

https://nroi.org/rules-insights/when-the-gun-breaks-the-rm-must-be-called/

 

Here’s the part that’s interesting:

Secondly, the RM needs to make sure that the gun change does not give the competitor a competitive advantage. I will tell you that we hardly see competitive advantage when the firearm meets the division requirements.

[RJH]

As range master in the past, if a backup gun met division requirements and your primary broke, I would allow a backup gun with no issue. 

 

Of course, I can't speak on what any other range Master would do. Some people just like to be difficult LOL 

 

 

Edited to add: IMO if a gun meets division requirements it cannot possibly give you a competitive advantage over the other people in your division. Not allowing a gun for having a perceived competitive advantage over yourself earlier in the match is pretty ludicrous

 

 

 

 

Edited December 26, 2022 by RJH

[Johnny_Chimpo]

1 hour ago, Stafford said:

What if you’re shooting a match with your actual carry gun and it breaks. Then you want to switch to your regular match gun. So, let’s say you’re shooting your 365XL in CO and you have an issue and want to switch. Your “back up” for that match is your normal CO gun, an X5 Legion. The X5 obviously meets division requirements, however, it does present a competitive advantage over the 365XL in terms of capacity and recoil management. Does the X5, in this case, constitute a competitive advantage?

 

In your case, you would be switching from something that is a competitive DISADVANTAGE to something that puts you on parity with the rest (or most) of the other competitors.

 

I can't see how your scenario would be considered a competitive advantage.  In fact, like @RJH said, I find it hard to imagine gaining a competitive advantage by switching from a pistol that meets division requirements to another one that does.

 

The term competitive advantage means you gain an edge that no one else has, not that your new pistol is easier to shoot/has more ammo than the one you're replacing.  IOW competitive advantage is measured relative to the norm not against yourself.

 

It's difficult to put into words but easy for an experienced RM to gauge.

[Joe4d]

IMO the "May" in that rule allows for a RM to use some commo sense to weed out shenanigans.
Guy shows up with a SS Bulleseye gun cause the first stage is a 50 yards standard,,, But then wants to switch to a plastic fantastic, cause its raining and muddy and the rest of the match is spray and pray.. 
yeh may never happen.. New gun meets division have at it.. BUT that may is there for something no one thought of before.. So IMO good rule. 

 

[RJH]

4 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

IMO the "May" in that rule allows for a RM to use some commo sense to weed out shenanigans.
Guy shows up with a SS Bulleseye gun cause the first stage is a 50 yards standard,,, But then wants to switch to a plastic fantastic, cause its raining and muddy and the rest of the match is spray and pray.. 
yeh may never happen.. New gun meets division have at it.. BUT that may is there for something no one thought of before.. So IMO good rule. 

 

 

Did their bullseye gun break? If so it's a non-issue

[Joe4d]

2 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

Did their bullseye gun break? If so it's a non-issue

Coulda made it break, or claimed it kept jamming, who knows... Not really relevant to the point I was making. Which is its a good rule and the RM can use common sense to decide regardless of whether the new gun meets division or someone thinks its an advantage or not.

 

[RJH]

29 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

Coulda made it break, or claimed it kept jamming, who knows... Not really relevant to the point I was making. Which is its a good rule and the RM can use common sense to decide regardless of whether the new gun meets division or someone thinks its an advantage or not.

 

 

If you're that skeptical on whether or not they actually have a broke gun make them display it's brokenness for you. If it's broke it's still a non-issue, if it works fine and they were trying to cheat DQ them for unsportsmanlike conduct. People make way too much out of all of this gun switching questions.

 

If someone's gun breaks and their backup gun fits the division, let them shoot and don't worry about it. Any other circumstances are already covered under the rules without any subjectivity throw it in. 

 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

1 hour ago, RJH said:

 

If you're that skeptical on whether or not they actually have a broke gun make them display it's brokenness for you. If it's broke it's still a non-issue, if it works fine and they were trying to cheat DQ them for unsportsmanlike conduct. People make way too much out of all of this gun switching questions.

 

If someone's gun breaks and their backup gun fits the division, let them shoot and don't worry about it. Any other circumstances are already covered under the rules without any subjectivity throw it in. 

 

 

1000% this

 

I don't get the wringing of hands over this

[IVC]

RM cannot know that you switched guns, he doesn't have a list. The stage ROs (if they are per-stage) also can't know what gun you're shooting because they too don't have a list. If the gun looks the same, nobody knows if anything is changed between stages. The whole "gun switching gaming" is a big hypothetical with the primary remedy to DQ under "unsportsmanlike conduct," which is a catch-all RM power to prevent a $#!%$-show if someone goes way out of line (subjective, rarely used, akin to enforcing dress code). 

 

I wouldn't worry about it, if the gun is legal for division it's good to go. Nobody will win a match because they switched the gun, nor will they gain anything by shooting two different guns. More importantly, if someone REALLY wanted to switch guns and still play it by the book, there is a simple way - break the gun before every stage where you want to shoot a different gun (for example, put in a broken guide rod and tell the RM you don't have super glue). 

 

[Joe4d]

On 12/26/2022 at 5:19 PM, RJH said:

 

If you're that skeptical on whether or not they actually have a broke gun make them display it's brokenness for you. If it's broke it's still a non-issue, if it works fine and they were trying to cheat DQ them for unsportsmanlike conduct. People make way too much out of all of this gun switching questions.

 

If someone's gun breaks and their backup gun fits the division, let them shoot and don't worry about it. Any other circumstances are already covered under the rules without any subjectivity throw it in. 

 

I see the rule like the "Do Not Eat" warning on a desiccant pack.
It wouldnt exist unless somewhere, sometime, someone did something to warrant the rule... 
Its not hurting anything as is,, and evidently it is still preventing whatever happened.

[shred]

Way back when we did have 50 yard standards, there were rumors of people bringing 'accuracy' guns and 'old-reliabile' guns and switching them out as needed. 

 

It probably happened or was enough of a concern that people might bring golf-bags full of pistols that they put the rules in. 

IPSC still makes you record the serial number on your equipment card at sign-in and ROs check it periodically. 

 

I think the improvements in pistols overall have largely made the 'bag-o-guns' option not useful, but if there were no rules on swapping, I bet you can think of some people that would try it.

[Sarge]

9 hours ago, IVC said:

RM cannot know that you switched guns, he doesn't have a list. The stage ROs (if they are per-stage) also can't know what gun you're shooting because they too don't have a list. If the gun looks the same, nobody knows if anything is changed between stages. The whole "gun switching gaming" is a big hypothetical with the primary remedy to DQ under "unsportsmanlike conduct," which is a catch-all RM power to prevent a $#!%$-show if someone goes way out of line (subjective, rarely used, akin to enforcing dress code). 

 

I wouldn't worry about it, if the gun is legal for division it's good to go. Nobody will win a match because they switched the gun, nor will they gain anything by shooting two different guns. More importantly, if someone REALLY wanted to switch guns and still play it by the book, there is a simple way - break the gun before every stage where you want to shoot a different gun (for example, put in a broken guide rod and tell the RM you don't have super glue). 

 

So you fully support cheating….

[Joe4d]

the 50 yard,, vs spray and pray stages was my thoughts as well. But folks these days cant grasp that IPSC / USPSA at one time had accuracy as part of the game. SO they cant grasp a reason for the rule.

 

[shred]

These days it would probably be different dot sizes, front/rear sight widths, weights, zeroed at 7 yards versus 25, makes chrono and things of that sort.

USPSA's approach of "not allowed, but we aren't going to be all up in your business unless we think you're cheating" is not terrible.

 

[MikeyScuba]

13 hours ago, shred said:

Way back when we did have 50 yard standards, there were rumors of people bringing 'accuracy' guns and 'old-reliabile' guns and switching them out as needed. 

 

It probably happened or was enough of a concern that people might bring golf-bags full of pistols that they put the rules in. 

IPSC still makes you record the serial number on your equipment card at sign-in and ROs check it periodically. 

 

I think the improvements in pistols overall have largely made the 'bag-o-guns' option not useful, but if there were no rules on swapping, I bet you can think of some people that would try it.

Must be for L4's and up?  Never, ever had to give serials at L1-3's.  I can see there being advantages in production for a match vs chrono gun.

[IVC]

7 hours ago, Sarge said:

So you fully support cheating….

Not at all, why would one cheat if they can legally use 5.1.7 and 5.1.8?

 

There is nothing in 5.1.7 that says how the problem happened, only: "in the event ... original firearm and/or sights become unserviceable or unsafe during a match." Self-inflicted problems are included. And even 5.1.8 doesn't say that significant modifications on the sly are are a DQ, not even that unauthorized substitutions are, only that they "... will be subject to the provisions of Section 10.6," which is the generic unsportsmanlike conduct. It's right there with 5.3.1 about the dress code - subjective and meant to provide a means to stop disruptions, but far from a fine tuning tool with well defined limits.

 

So, say you're the RM and the competitor asks you to replace the gun under 5.1.7. The only potential issue is 5.1.7.2 about "competitive advantage." You have two guns, say a Glock and a Sig in front of you, one is broken. Which one is a competitive advantage over the other and how do you justify it to the arbitration committee if it comes to that? Do you have a table of firearms that lists which one is a competitive advantage over which other ones in which specific situations? Do you even know the characteristics of the two guns in front of you? 

 

As the old Greek saying goes, "what you cannot enforce, do not command." The rules 5.1.7 and 5.1.8 are there to show general intent, but are not easily enforceable so they are not "real rules" and will eventually have to be rewritten if there is ever an issue of people switching guns. But I seriously doubt that anyone will gain anything by using a gun that he could've used in the first place anyways. So, keep the rule there as a "general intent" and in case it becomes an issue, first use subjective calls in 10.6, then if it continues and becomes a big issue, modify the rules to deal with the problem. That's how the rules about activated targets and the use of supports outside shooting areas evolved - there was a problem and the rules were adjusted and rewritten to deal with it. 

[IVC]

7 minutes ago, MikeyScuba said:

Must be for L4's and up?  Never, ever had to give serials at L1-3's.  I can see there being advantages in production for a match vs chrono gun.

The problem with S/N is that, at least in the USA, only the frame is serialized. Even for chrono one can replace the barrel or, with Sig FCU, the whole gun. Serial number isn't the solution if there is indeed a real problem with switching guns. 

 

For the sake of argument, let's say that switching guns becomes permitted. What exactly would the strategy be and who and how would get any advantage by switching guns (within same division, obviously)? I mean, when was the last time you looked at a stage and thought to yourself: "If only I could shoot my other gun on this stage."?

[MikeBurgess]

1 hour ago, IVC said:

The problem with S/N is that, at least in the USA, only the frame is serialized. Even for chrono one can replace the barrel or, with Sig FCU, the whole gun. Serial number isn't the solution if there is indeed a real problem with switching guns. 

 

For the sake of argument, let's say that switching guns becomes permitted. What exactly would the strategy be and who and how would get any advantage by switching guns (within same division, obviously)? I mean, when was the last time you looked at a stage and thought to yourself: "If only I could shoot my other gun on this stage."?

I wouldn't likely do it but there are lots of guys that are looking to buy some performance so I could see them wanting different guns for different stages

for a 50 yard standard (or other extreme accuracy stage) a very very heavy very stable gun 

for a 5 yard hoser stage a light weight gun 

for the rest I would use something in between like most of us shoot now. 

 

 

is it a real problem? likely not, but is having it against the rules to use multiple guns a bad thing? I think not

 

[IVC]

41 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

is it a real problem? likely not, but is having it against the rules to use multiple guns a bad thing? I think not

 

Agreed - it's one of those rules that is there to provide intent, but is not nearly mature enough to provide real teeth. And it doesn't have to be mature until it does become a problem, if it ever does. In the meantime, it's best enforced through common sense - as long as it's not something obviously egregious, there are no good ways to enforce it in an objective way, so stick to the simple "if it fits division requirements, it's good to go," which is precisely what the rest of 5.1.7 suggests. 

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

The wording of competitive advantage” has no meaning on its face in this context. 
Your right if the gun meets the divisions rules there is no advantage. The  RM in my opinion has only one call to make ,is there gun broke and does the back up fit the division rules. 
there is no interpretation here. 
I wish the suggested rule updates would have gone further in cleaning up ambiguous and misplaced words. 

 

[MikeyScuba]

My wife took her 2 SD2's for milling for optics years back and the owner in conversation mentioned a few production shooters had a fully tricked out prod. gun for the match and a stock one for chrono.

 

I've been on a squad where the first trigger pull was too light on a prod. gun and off to open he went.  Obviously he wasn't cheating but in production and prod. optics having a chrono and match gun could be a slight advantage.

 

And going into a realm where nobody cares a fellow revo shooter didn't make chrono.  He mentioned he has 2 of the same model revo's and the one he had chrono'd was slower.  To which I replied why didn't you just take both and hand the quicker one in at chrono? Didn't get an answer. lol

[broadside72]

I emailed Troy about this when my two guns were a P10F with SRO and a BullShadow2 with SRO. One is striker fired, light and transitions really fast but has more perceived recoil and the other is heavy with little recoil and a crisp SA and nice DA. He said they both fit the division rules and it would be no big deal

 

He did comment about it being more of an issue in Open where you could go from optics to irons, etc. if the next stage benefited from irons for example.