627 Problems

[gargoil66]

7 hours ago, Farmer said:

You’ve probably checked this but did you check the crane for carbon between it and the cylinder? I’ve had a couple that get blowback in there and it gets hard to turn. Usually after a little wiggling they free up. Also thought that you could soak it in an 100 degree oven to see if it is definitely heat related. 

Farmer:

 

Thoroughly clean.  I thought it may be carbon build up so started brushing the carbon off of the revolver and then running a nylon brush through the chambers and barrel between stages.  Not a big hassle.  Longest time spent going to a safe area to do it.  Unfortunately, carbon build up was not the problem.  

 

GG

[gargoil66]

2 hours ago, testosterone said:

 

I dont think this is the case, i know first hand plenty of very modified guns have gone back to smith for factory repair and the warranty was honored.

 

All the modern guns including your ref gun have lifetime warranty...i understand your doubts about them fixing it though or getting it back in less than a year , i would send it to one of several gunsmiths as well....

T-T

 

Didn't know that.  When I returned my 327 TRR-8 they wanted proof of original ownership and said if it was modified in any way that the warranty was void and I would have to pay the costs.  Not uncommon for workers at places to assume things though.  The TRR-8 was back in two weeks and was fixed.  However, all they had to do was pull the trigger eight times to see that they never checked it before it left their shop so the problem was evident.

 

Would rather send it to someone I trust to find the problem and get it fixed, even if I have to pay. 

 

GG

[pskys2]

14 hours ago, gargoil66 said:

 

Do you mean the part where the key goes or some other lock?  If it is the lock itself, it is still there.  How could that cause it to do what it is doing?

 

GG

PK:

 

Will send it to Warren.  I do not trust Smith and Wesson to find the problem and fix it.  I see six months then a message saying they couldn't get it to lock up and are returning it.   Also, it was used when I bought it and someone ported it with two tiny slits that do nothing.  So the warranty is void.

 

 

 

 

Warren is a good choice.

[pskys2]

4 hours ago, testosterone said:

 

I dont think this is the case, i know first hand plenty of very modified guns have gone back to smith for factory repair and the warranty was honored.

 

All the modern guns including your ref gun have lifetime warranty...i understand your doubts about them fixing it though or getting it back in less than a year , i would send it to one of several gunsmiths as well....

Not necessarily i sent my 627 PC back for a broken hammer stud with everything back to factory pieces and the paperwork showing it was only owned by me and only a few years old.  They still charged me, but did a good job though.

Unlike the m29 where they did it for free but a horribly bad job.

Seems hit or miss at best.

[pskys2]

15 hours ago, gargoil66 said:

 

Do you mean the part where the key goes or some other lock?  If it is the lock itself, it is still there.  How could that cause it to do what it is doing?

 

GG

PK:

 

Will send it to Warren.  I do not trust Smith and Wesson to find the problem and fix it.  I see six months then a message saying they couldn't get it to lock up and are returning it.   Also, it was used when I bought it and someone ported it with two tiny slits that do nothing.  So the warranty is void.

 

 

 

 

Yes the lock I've seen them do strange things, usually it seems to lock up the cylinder release though and not let the cylinder be opened.

[testosterone]

2 hours ago, gargoil66 said:

Would rather send it to someone I trust to find the problem and get it fixed, even if I have to pay. 

100% get it.

 

i have 2 n frames having broken trigger studs replaced right now at a gunsmith that is not s&w...

 

And no, I never pulled the trigger with the sideplate off either of them ever...one is a very early 929 the other a 627-4 that is now a 929...

[testosterone]

19 minutes ago, pskys2 said:

Seems hit or miss at best.

For sure, its a shame.

[MWP]

4 hours ago, testosterone said:

 

I dont think this is the case, i know first hand plenty of very modified guns have gone back to smith for factory repair and the warranty was honored.

 

All the modern guns including your ref gun have lifetime warranty...i understand your doubts about them fixing it though or getting it back in less than a year , i would send it to one of several gunsmiths as well....

Sean have you sent them a gun recently? I sent a gun back that was almost new for a broken trigger stud, and I had to pay for their extremely lousy workmanship.  
 

They told me that stud is a wear item and not covered by the warranty since it wasn’t a defect. I didn’t argue because I wanted my gun back.
 

I’m hoping this is just a unique case and they’re still doing warranty work without charging. 

[testosterone]

2 minutes ago, MWP said:

Sean have you sent them a gun recently? I sent a gun back that was almost new for a broken trigger stud, and I had to pay for their extremely lousy workmanship.  
 

They told me that stud is a wear item and not covered by the warranty since it wasn’t a defect. I didn’t argue because I wanted my gun back.
 

I’m hoping this is just a unique case and they’re still doing warranty work without charging. 

 

I have not sent them a gun recently, so my info is definitely dated and you guys are resetting expectations.    I had both guns wrapped up to send to smith on promise from them it was warranty work and saw Joe Leinenger post on FB a bunch of guns he had just repaired and opt'ed to send to him and pay to get the guns back as they are(olhasso'd) and not completely refit to factory...

[DougCarden]

Smith refused to repair my 625 (center pin hole on recoil shield got hogged out).  They wanted to sell me a new frame.  I told them not to touch it and I had them send the gun to a Smith.  He welded the hole and recut it.  Tada.  Back to 100%.  Smiths like Joe at Mojo will get my work as long as he wants to work.  Smith is not like it used to be.....

DougC

[testosterone]

12 minutes ago, DougCarden said:

Joe at Mojo

These are the first guns I have sent to him, but the all round word is he does excellent work, and likewise I will send him broken stuff as long as he's doing it.

[MWP]

1 minute ago, testosterone said:

These are the first guns I have sent to him, but the all round word is he does excellent work, and likewise I will send him broken stuff as long as he's doing it.

Yeah same here. I’d rather pay someone solid like Joe than get whatever is happening at the factory recently. 
 

Hopefully this is cleared up in time. It would be really nice to see some of the classic work I’ve seen from the factory come back to them. 

[Toolguy]

Hi guys-

I've been trying unsuccessfully to clear out my inbox. MWP - I sent you a PM, but don't know if it actually was sent or not. Now I can't send any more messages till I get this mess cleared up. If you want to call, my shop phone is 913-422-8966.

[Farmer]

5 hours ago, gargoil66 said:

Farmer:

 

Thoroughly clean.  I thought it may be carbon build up so started brushing the carbon off of the revolver and then running a nylon brush through the chambers and barrel between stages.  Not a big hassle.  Longest time spent going to a safe area to do it.  Unfortunately, carbon build up was not the problem.  

 

GG

I guess I should have been more clear. The carbon problem I had was inside the cylinder where it rotates on the crane. It would blast out of the cyl gap and apparently there was enough endshake gap that it would work it’s way between the two. 

[gargoil66]

5 hours ago, Farmer said:

I guess I should have been more clear. The carbon problem I had was inside the cylinder where it rotates on the crane. It would blast out of the cyl gap and apparently there was enough endshake gap that it would work it’s way between the two. 

 

You know -- that is something I haven't checked!  Will hit it tomorrow after I clear snow.  Some serious snow going to hit here any time and through tomorrow.  

 

Odessa, eh?  Farmer is right. Big time I bet.  A lot of respect for you fellows.

 

GG

[mchapman]

On 12/8/2022 at 12:47 PM, gargoil66 said:

Pin is long gone.   Not sure why they were put in there to begin with. 

 

GG

I believe that it was or is used as a type of trigger stop. I don't think they worked all that well for that though.

[mchapman]

You may want to check the double action sear to trigger engagement, if that is off it can cause similar problems as to what you are describing, just not as predictable 50 rounds or more like you are saying. I have had that happen with stock and with apex hammers.

[Farmer]

7 hours ago, gargoil66 said:

 

You know -- that is something I haven't checked!  Will hit it tomorrow after I clear snow.  Some serious snow going to hit here any time and through tomorrow.  

 

Odessa, eh?  Farmer is right. Big time I bet.  A lot of respect for you fellows.

 

GG

Started snowing around 11:30 here. Should be there in about an hour or two. I’m just a one man operation but thank you for your respect. 

[gargoil66]

11 hours ago, mchapman said:

You may want to check the double action sear to trigger engagement, if that is off it can cause similar problems as to what you are describing, just not as predictable 50 rounds or more like you are saying. I have had that happen with stock and with apex hammers.

MC:

 

Yes.  I too think it is something with the trigger and hammer.  That's why I changed out the TK and put in the APEX.  The Apex was in my TRR-8.  Just removed it and put it into this frame.  Wanted to see if something was different.  Not so. 

 

When it comes to sear engagements et al., I do not what to look for.  I see guys with fancy jigs which they put the trigger or hammer at the perfect angles then hone.  I don't see any for sale and shudder to think of the price.  Honestly, I can not yet visualize the cause and effect of doing any sort of thing to the sear.  If I can visualize it, I can do it.  Right now I draw a blank.  

 

The remarkable thing to me is that it will be fine until over fifty rounds fired.  May go eighty but never 100 without the trigger to get real hard for a shot or two then nothing again for a number of shots.  The more it is shot, the more often it happens.  Doesn't matter if the temp is 80 or 10 out.  About the same number of shots.  

 

Perhaps a priest is more in order than a gunsmith?

 

I will again try and educate myself on sear engagements and take another look.  Won't touch a thing with a hone unless I am positive I am doing the right thing the right way.

 

GG

 

 

[ysrracer]

Has anyone mentioned maybe send it to a gunsmith?

[Toolguy]

It's not the sear engagement, or it would do it all the time. This sounds more like crud building up somewhere from the firing process. Maybe lead building up between the cylinder and forcing cone, or carbon between the crane and cylinder, debris under the extractor, that sort of thing. Make sure the endshake is no more than .001, cylinder gap is .006 or more, clean the yoke barrel, etc.

[gargoil66]

1 hour ago, Toolguy said:

It's not the sear engagement, or it would do it all the time. This sounds more like crud building up somewhere from the firing process. Maybe lead building up between the cylinder and forcing cone, or carbon between the crane and cylinder, debris under the extractor, that sort of thing. Make sure the endshake is no more than .001, cylinder gap is .006 or more, clean the yoke barrel, etc.

 

Will do!

[gargoil66]

2 hours ago, ysrracer said:

Has anyone mentioned maybe send it to a gunsmith?

YR:

 

I am all for it.  Finding a gunsmith who appears to be interested in taking on the work is harder to find.

 

Won't get into that part of the equation though.  If one of them responded saying he would take it and fix it, without a bunch of 'must be', 'must have', and 'will take me six months before I can look at it', I would have it boxed up in fifteen minutes and shipped within 24 hours.  

 

I believe TK was the only place who didn't make up any demands or excuses so far.  Just that it would take a while before they could get to it.

 

Will give a shot to the advice Farmer and Warren gave though.  I can inspect and measure those things and can correct them if they are not within spec.

 

I have some copper plated 125s and may load a hundred and shoot them.  Right now I have only shot powder coated bullets out of them and they will fowl more so than plated in my experience.  May even have some FMJ .38's sitting around.  If I can get to 100 rounds fired without this happening, I would have made a major breakthrough.

 

GG

[PatJones]

On 12/8/2022 at 10:31 AM, gargoil66 said:

Checked the cylinder gap and they are right at specs of .005.

That sounds on the tight side to me.

 

How much end shake do you have? End shake reduces cylinder to barrel clearance while you're pulling the trigger.

[gargoil66]

53 minutes ago, PatJones said:

That sounds on the tight side to me.

 

How much end shake do you have? End shake reduces cylinder to barrel clearance while you're pulling the trigger.

Pat:

 

Per the advise of Warren and Farmer, I just now removed the cylinder and disassembled the ejector.  No crud inside the cylinder or crane.  No uneven wear marks.  

 

Checked for end shake and if it is even there, it is so tiny I couldn't measure it.  The thing is pretty tight.  It is not end shake.

 

Checked the cylinder gap and three of the chambers were a tight .006 with the other five being such that the feeler gauge slides in and out easily but without any binding so they may be up to .007 but absolutely not more.

 

I would not be against opening up the cylinder gap a tiny bit but I doubt the problem is the cylinder gap.  This revolver will do the same thing after cleaning when dry firing but it takes a lot more trigger pulls.  It isn't carbon build up between the cylinder and barrel.

 

I have put in a totally different trigger and hammer and it does it with them too so it is not the trigger and hammer fitting.

 

I have changed the block the return spring fits in and inspected the frame and block for wear.  No uneven wear, no burrs, nothing.

 

The cylinder stop appears to be functioning but that one is over my head to inspect due to its many angles.  It is a possibility.

 

The hand appears to be functioning too.  No signs of uneven wear.  However again, I do not know what to look for so it too is a possibility.

 

Another possibility is the return spring assembly and its interface with the trigger.   A heavier return spring caused this to happen more quickly and more often.  So I am suspicious but other than swapping out parts, I do not know what to look for there either.

 

GG