627 Problems

[gargoil66]

Ok -- try this one again.

 

I own a number of 627's.  One of them is a 627 'Eight Times'.  Five inch bbl I believe.  I think it is  Pro Center revolver.  Got it used and from the start it gave me problems.

 

I can shoot it about fifty or seventy five times and it starts jamming on me.  The trigger either totally jams or becomes extremely hard to move for the first bit of trigger movement.  When it totally fails to move, I have to go through a series of pull and release and even grab the cylinder and rotate it left and right before it will work.  Even then it is normally a real hard pull to get it past that first little bit of movement.  

 

Have used the Apex and the TK competition trigger and hammer sets.  Same thing with both.  Thought it was not returning so put in a fifteen pound return spring.  This time it happened sooner and more often.  Went back to my 12 pound return spring and back to its normal failures after about fifty shots fired.

 

Thought it was due to heat expansion in the summer but shot it yesterday in 20 degree weather and it did it again -- starting right around fifty or seventy shots.

 

Doesn't do it all the time after that many rounds but becomes more often after maybe 75 shots.

 

Is not high primers.

 

I took off the side plate and tried to make it happen and it did but am not sure where it is locking up.  I think what is happening is the junction of the trigger and hammer are coming out of alignment or buckling slightly.  I have used shims and it did nothing.

 

I would send it to someone but they may dry fire it a couple hundred times and not cause this to happen. 

 

I dropped in a Rev Up Action hammer yesterday and shot it in cold weather.  Thought I had something until about fifty rounds fired then the trigger got super hard to pull for a shot.  The more I shot it, the more often this happened after about fifty rounds fired.

 

OK -- anyone else have this happen and or your opinions are welcome.  I like the revolver and want this fixed.

 

GG

[RJH]

The first thing that comes to my mind is dirt/powder residue building up under the moons causing the case heads to rub on the frame. Or possibly a bent moon clip. Seen that happen with other guns and cause basically the same thing you're talking about. Good luck

[pskys2]

Actually sounds like a cracked frame or studs.  Sounds like something somewhere is stretching when it shouldn't under heat or stress.

[Bill Sahlberg]

Why not send it back to S&W? It sounds more serious than a spring or full moon clip.

 

Mine has 120K+ rounds and the 'play' it has in it contributes to faster reloads and a better trigger than my other 627

[ysrracer]

Is the ejector rod loose? It has left hand threads.

 

I know a tractor mechanic in Phoenix that can butcher it up for you.

[gargoil66]

3 hours ago, RJH said:

The first thing that comes to my mind is dirt/powder residue building up under the moons causing the case heads to rub on the frame. Or possibly a bent moon clip. Seen that happen with other guns and cause basically the same thing you're talking about. Good luck

RJ:

 

Thought the same until I started brushing out the chambers, barrel, and the cylinder after twenty five shots during training.  You see, it will work for the first number of rounds after I clean it so I figured to give it a try.  Didn't work.

 

GG

[MikeBurgess]

sounds like the barrel to cylinder clearance is not enough, a little carbon on either and they rub and cause the trigger pull to skyrocket.

[gargoil66]

2 hours ago, pskys2 said:

Actually sounds like a cracked frame or studs.  Sounds like something somewhere is stretching when it shouldn't under heat or stress.

PK:

 

That is my thought too.  I have looked very closely at the hammer and trigger pins and the frame.  Looked with jewelers glasses thoroughly.  I do not see a crack or anything indicating failure.  As far as I can determine, the trigger and hammer pins are sticking straight out from the frame.  I had another revolver guy look as well and he saw nothing to indicate a fracture anywhere.

 

We were thinking that perhaps the trigger and hammer pins were located slightly out of specs in the frame but have no way of measuring them.  This happens when the revolver heats up, I am somewhat sure of that but yesterday I shot it in very cold conditions and it started around the same round count as in the hottest of conditions.  Colder would mean I should have gotten more shots out of it before it acted up.

 

As I said, when I got it to lock up while the side plate was off, I noticed the trigger and hammer had gotten a bit out of alignment.  When I pushed the trigger back down into the frame, it released.  So I shimmed it and it did nothing either.

 

Next step for me is to use a eleven pound return spring and see if that makes a difference.  I first changed the block the return spring sits inside.  No change.  So I used a 15 pound return spring and found it happened faster and more often.  So, perhaps it has something to do with the return spring assembly and trigger interface.

 

Really at a loss though.  

 

GG

[gargoil66]

3 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

sounds like the barrel to cylinder clearance is not enough, a little carbon on either and they rub and cause the trigger pull to skyrocket.

Mike:

 

I wish.  Checked the cylinder gap and they are right at specs of .005.

 

When practicing it has happened and I have kept my finger on the trigger and turned to the side (keeping the blaster where it could safely blast a berm and not me if it went off).  I looked from the side and did not see anything indicating crud, high primer, or the firing pin interfering with the movement of the cylinder.  OK -- maybe the hand?  So when I got home and cleaned it I checked the hand and its timing and honestly could find nothing from a visual.  Could be the hand but why after fifty or more shots fired?  

 

Just note though that this blaster seems to like to break firing pins too and I have had this happen due to a broken pin before but have also checked the firing pin after it has happened and found the firing pin to be fine.

 

GG

[gargoil66]

2 hours ago, Bill Sahlberg said:

Why not send it back to S&W? It sounds more serious than a spring or full moon clip.

 

Mine has 120K+ rounds and the 'play' it has in it contributes to faster reloads and a better trigger than my other 627

Bill:

 

Unless it decided to act up way sooner than normal, Smith and Wesson would say nothing was wrong. 

 

I have dry fired this a couple hundred times before it happens.  May go five dry firing sessions with nothing then it happens numerous times.  Then it stops for a few hundred dry fires.  

 

Very frustrating because I like the revolver.

 

GG

[MikeBurgess]

Firing pin return spring? I'm sure if you check the firing pin its not the problem but its worth mentioning. 

[Toolguy]

You might check the cylinder stop spring. The cylinder stop has a slot instead of a hole for it's pivot point. If the spring is bent or kinked, at a certain rotation it could be making the cylinder stop crooked, which in turn, could make the stop catch on top of the trigger as the trigger tries to pull it down. From the evidence presented, that's my first guess. I've never heard of this before, so kind of hard to know without the gun on the bench. I'm pretty sure it's not from heat. I've never had a revolver get hot enough to expand the metal any noticeable amount. I've had them hot enough to burn your hand on the barrel.

[gargoil66]

36 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

Firing pin return spring? I'm sure if you check the firing pin its not the problem but its worth mentioning. 

That has crossed my mind.  Have removed it and looked at it.  Even compared it as best as I can to other return springs.  Just can not identify anything so went ahead and changed it anyway once.  Nothing.

 

Something mechanical is going on.

 

Could be as PK said -- a crack somewhere that is causing it when it heats up.

 

Could be Smith and Wesson put one or both the hammer and trigger pin a little off and when it heats up, something happens between the trigger and hammer.  Visual shows nothing and I can't measure the pins to see if they are installed in the right location.

 

I am tending to look towards the return spring block and return spring pushing the trigger a little out of alignment with the hammer or the hand is jamming periodically.

 

Like most guys here, I want to find the problem first, then fix it.  Right now about the only thing that changed when I changed something was when I put in the 15 pound return spring and it locked up way sooner and way more often than the 12 pound return spring.  So I will try lighter return springs and see what happens.

 

GG

[gargoil66]

2 minutes ago, Toolguy said:

You might check the cylinder stop spring. The cylinder stop has a slot instead of a hole for it's pivot point. If the spring is bent or kinked, at a certain rotation it could be making the cylinder stop crooked, which in turn, could make the stop catch on top of the trigger as the trigger tries to pull it down. From the evidence presented, that's my first guess. I've never heard of this before, so kind of hard to know without the gun on the bench. I'm pretty sure it's not from heat. I've never had a revolver get hot enough to expand the metal any noticeable amount. I've had them hot enough to burn your hand on the barrel.

Warren:

 

Roger -- I spent an hour or two hours over several days looking at the cylinder stop as I dry fired it to see if it were locking up on me.  Results are that I am not sure because when it locked up, I could not tell what was locking.  I do not think it is the cylinder stop because I could move it a tiny bit when the thing was locked up.  Also I did not see it canted or otherwise different in its position.  However I remain suspicious.  Fitting a cylinder stop is something I would not look forward to doing.  In fact, if I could prove it was the cylinder stop, I would probably box it up and send it to you before messing around with it.

 

You may just get it anyway because if I can't find a solution in a day or two, I need to get it to someone who will.  Right now it is almost useless because I can not trust it to function.

 

GG

 

 

[ysrracer]

Do you still have that pin inside the rebound spring slide block thingy?

[vvshooter]

I had this happen to me at southwest regional last year on my 686 the trigger rebound spring was binding up on the rod. I took the rod out . No issues since. Hope this helps. 

[gargoil66]

19 minutes ago, ysrracer said:

Do you still have that pin inside the rebound spring slide block thingy?

YR:

 

No pin inside the rebound spring.  

 

And yes, I removed the ejector rod, disassembled it and rolled it on a piece of glass to see if there was any visual run out.  As far as my eyes were concerned, it was very straight.

 

GG

 

 

[gargoil66]

12 minutes ago, vvshooter said:

I had this happen to me at southwest regional last year on my 686 the trigger rebound spring was binding up on the rod. I took the rod out . No issues since. Hope this helps. 

Pin is long gone.   Not sure why they were put in there to begin with. 

 

GG

[pskys2]

2 hours ago, gargoil66 said:

That has crossed my mind.  Have removed it and looked at it.  Even compared it as best as I can to other return springs.  Just can not identify anything so went ahead and changed it anyway once.  Nothing.

 

Something mechanical is going on.

 

Could be as PK said -- a crack somewhere that is causing it when it heats up.

 

Could be Smith and Wesson put one or both the hammer and trigger pin a little off and when it heats up, something happens between the trigger and hammer.  Visual shows nothing and I can't measure the pins to see if they are installed in the right location.

 

I am tending to look towards the return spring block and return spring pushing the trigger a little out of alignment with the hammer or the hand is jamming periodically.

 

Like most guys here, I want to find the problem first, then fix it.  Right now about the only thing that changed when I changed something was when I put in the 15 pound return spring and it locked up way sooner and way more often than the 12 pound return spring.  So I will try lighter return springs and see what happens.

 

GG

The locking up with side plate off is common.  There is a pin that the rebound block rides against too?  Never had it crack or loosen up, but it's surprised me that none have.

Actually you might think about putting everything back to stock, especially a stock rebound spring.  The heavier spring may cause the issue to happen quicker.

Then send it to s&w for warranty.

[pskys2]

Does it still have the locking gear for the hammer?

[gargoil66]

2 hours ago, pskys2 said:

Does it still have the locking gear for the hammer?

 

Do you mean the part where the key goes or some other lock?  If it is the lock itself, it is still there.  How could that cause it to do what it is doing?

 

GG

2 hours ago, pskys2 said:

The locking up with side plate off is common.  There is a pin that the rebound block rides against too?  Never had it crack or loosen up, but it's surprised me that none have.

Actually you might think about putting everything back to stock, especially a stock rebound spring.  The heavier spring may cause the issue to happen quicker.

Then send it to s&w for warranty.

PK:

 

Will send it to Warren.  I do not trust Smith and Wesson to find the problem and fix it.  I see six months then a message saying they couldn't get it to lock up and are returning it.   Also, it was used when I bought it and someone ported it with two tiny slits that do nothing.  So the warranty is void.

 

 

 

 

[MWP]

7 hours ago, Toolguy said:

You might check the cylinder stop spring. The cylinder stop has a slot instead of a hole for it's pivot point. If the spring is bent or kinked, at a certain rotation it could be making the cylinder stop crooked, which in turn, could make the stop catch on top of the trigger as the trigger tries to pull it down. From the evidence presented, that's my first guess. I've never heard of this before, so kind of hard to know without the gun on the bench. I'm pretty sure it's not from heat. I've never had a revolver get hot enough to expand the metal any noticeable amount. I've had them hot enough to burn your hand on the barrel.

Warren, I can’t send you a pm. Can you send me one or can I email you through the website? 

[Farmer]

5 hours ago, gargoil66 said:

 

Do you mean the part where the key goes or some other lock?  If it is the lock itself, it is still there.  How could that cause it to do what it is doing?

 

GG

PK:

 

Will send it to Warren.  I do not trust Smith and Wesson to find the problem and fix it.  I see six months then a message saying they couldn't get it to lock up and are returning it.   Also, it was used when I bought it and someone ported it with two tiny slits that do nothing.  So the warranty is void.

 

 

 

 

You’ve probably checked this but did you check the crane for carbon between it and the cylinder? I’ve had a couple that get blowback in there and it gets hard to turn. Usually after a little wiggling they free up. Also thought that you could soak it in an 100 degree oven to see if it is definitely heat related. 

[testosterone]

10 hours ago, gargoil66 said:

The warranty is void.

 

 

I dont think this is the case, i know first hand plenty of very modified guns have gone back to smith for factory repair and the warranty was honored.

 

All the modern guns including your ref gun have lifetime warranty...i understand your doubts about them fixing it though or getting it back in less than a year , i would send it to one of several gunsmiths as well....

[gargoil66]

10 hours ago, MWP said:

Warren, I can’t send you a pm. Can you send me one or can I email you through the website? 

Warren:

 

Ditto.  Can't send you a private message.  Sent you a message on the Protocol web site yesterday for shipping instructions.

 

Gene