929 Question

[gargoil66]

Guys:

 

With the threads on the 929 I wonder why they are in demand.

 

Seems to me that they are a Model 27 given their .38 cal bore diameter, but limited to one cartridge.

 

Why are they in demand to the point of used ones going for twice the cost of new ones?

 

GG

[oteroman]

Probably the work that was done to them. To get the trigger pull down, chamfering titanium, etc etc

i was one of the first to get Jerry’s gun. 
Piece of crap for me. 

Edited December 7, 2022 by oteroman

[Bill Sahlberg]

Why? Competition with 8 rounds is always better than 6 rounds

[oteroman]

I can’t remember how high the trigger pull was but i was thinking JM put his name on this?

[pskys2]

The false lure of 9mm in a revolver for those shooting 9mm semi-auto's.

[Toolguy]

A friend recently got a new one. Straight from the box it had a 16 lb. trigger pull. Not my idea of Performance Center performance.

[Mcfoto]

11 minutes ago, Toolguy said:

A friend recently got a new one. Straight from the box it had a 16 lb. trigger pull. Not my idea of Performance Center performance.

Pretty sure they are that heavy to set off anything out of the box. A while ago I found the video where Jerry M. “Unboxed” his first 929. At the end he said the first thing he was going to do is work on action…

[testosterone]

3 hours ago, gargoil66 said:

Guys:

 

With the threads on the 929 I wonder why they are in demand.

 

Seems to me that they are a Model 27 given their .38 cal bore diameter, but limited to one cartridge.

 

Why are they in demand to the point of used ones going for twice the cost of new ones?

 

GG

 

The reason I did it was purely administrative.  I have a mark 7/1050 automated press setup for 9mm, my wifes CZ's, my 2011's, my CO guns, etc...are all 9mm.   All I need to change on the press to change the load is switch the powder dropper.   

 

Single head stamp 9mm brass is easily obtained as well in large quantities that are far less expensive than starline.

 

Those guns as they come from the factory are legit terrible, this seems undeniable to me, and they all need 600-1k in gunsmithing to make into something other than a plinker, but this is true of all N frames in the last 20 years.

 

The reason the guns are going for 2x right now is the same as the reason everything is 2-5x in your life right now.  Inflation is real.   Also, smith only made a few thousand of those guns and has not produced a new batch of 929's, afaik at least, many many years at least and there is zero sign any are coming anytime soon.   AR15's and plastic M&P's are gravy profits with huge customer bases.

 

Similarly to the ruger super gp, there are like 500 of those guns in circulation world wide, people that really want one will pay for them.

[superdude]

8 hours ago, gargoil66 said:

Guys:

 

With the threads on the 929 I wonder why they are in demand.

 

Seems to me that they are a Model 27 given their .38 cal bore diameter, but limited to one cartridge.

 

GG

 

The 9mm and 38/357 have the exact same bore and groove diameter SAAMI specs, which are 0.346" bore and 0.355" groove +.004". Anything with a groove diameter between 0.355" and 0.359" is within spec for either caliber. Therefore, there is no such thing as a 9mm bore/groove diameter and a separate and different 38/357 bore/groove diameter. They are the same, like it or not.  

 

The only difference between 9mm barrels and 38/357 barrels is their rate of twist.

9mm = 1:10". 

38/357 = 1/18.75".

But twist rate is optional. 

 

I've slugged many 9mm and 38/357 barrels and their groove diameters cover the same range, except some Colt revolver barrels that were under 0.355". Colt has a reputation for that, at least the old barrels. I don't know about the new ones. 

 

The SAAMI bullet specs are different.

9mm - 0.3555-.003

38/357 = jacketed 0.358-.003. Lead 0.359-.003

 

SAAMI specs:  https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/ANSI-SAAMI-Z299.3-CFP-and-R-Approved-2015-12-14-Posting-Copy.pdf

 

The SAAMI bullet specs are different.

9mm - 0.3555-.003

38/357 = jacketed 0.358-.003. Lead 0.359-.003

 

Which is why we see 9mm jacketed bullets at 0.355" and revolver jacketed bullets at 0.357".

[gargoil66]

9 hours ago, Bill Sahlberg said:

Why? Competition with 8 rounds is always better than 6 rounds

Bill:

 

Roger but a 627 also has eight rounds and can take a number of different cartridge designs.  The 929 can take only a 9mm case.  Probably a .380 too.  627 can take .38 Spl, .357, Short and Long Colt.  Yours takes .38 Super.  Unfortunately mine won't unless I get a .030 thickness moon clip. 

 

So, when it comes to competition -- what does a 929 offer that tilts a decision towards one as opposed to a 627?

 

GG

 

 

[ysrracer]

8 hours ago, Toolguy said:

A friend recently got a new one. Straight from the box it had a 16 lb. trigger pull. Not my idea of Performance Center performance.

 

Mine was virtually unusable from the factory. About half the time it wouldn't fire factory ammo.

 

No idea what the trigger pull was, BECAUSE MY SCALE STOPPED AT 12 POUNDS !!

 

I had a ton of work done on it including having the barrel cut to five inches by a tractor mechanic in Phoenix. His name rhymes with Glank Frenn. I wouldn't recommend him.

 

 

[MWP]

1 hour ago, gargoil66 said:

Bill:

 

Roger but a 627 also has eight rounds and can take a number of different cartridge designs.  The 929 can take only a 9mm case.  Probably a .380 too.  627 can take .38 Spl, .357, Short and Long Colt.  Yours takes .38 Super.  Unfortunately mine won't unless I get a .030 thickness moon clip. 

 

So, when it comes to competition -- what does a 929 offer that tilts a decision towards one as opposed to a 627?

 

GG

 

 

Ideally the 929 offered everything competition shooters wanted if they made a wish list. 8 rounds, titanium cylinder, 6.25-6.5” barrel barrel hat didn’t weigh a ton. These were pretty similar to what the top 5 were shooting when the 929 was finally released. 
 

In the end, I don’t think there’s a competitive advantage of one to the other. In theory the barrel length would be, but the sight length of a 5” 627 is still 1” longer than a full size 1911. 
 

I think a better question would be what would have happened if the 627 and 929 were released at the same time, 25-30 years ago. Would short colt have ever become popular? Or any of the cut down 38s? Would 9mm have been the preferred cartridge from the beginning because it’s technically much cheaper to shoot a 929 by not buying starline brass? The guys I know that bought the 627-4s swear by them- would we all be shooting those if the factory would have continued to make them? I probably would be.  

[gargoil66]

11 hours ago, MWP said:

Ideally the 929 offered everything competition shooters wanted if they made a wish list. 8 rounds, titanium cylinder, 6.25-6.5” barrel barrel hat didn’t weigh a ton. These were pretty similar to what the top 5 were shooting when the 929 was finally released. 
 

In the end, I don’t think there’s a competitive advantage of one to the other. In theory the barrel length would be, but the sight length of a 5” 627 is still 1” longer than a full size 1911. 
 

I think a better question would be what would have happened if the 627 and 929 were released at the same time, 25-30 years ago. Would short colt have ever become popular? Or any of the cut down 38s? Would 9mm have been the preferred cartridge from the beginning because it’s technically much cheaper to shoot a 929 by not buying starline brass? The guys I know that bought the 627-4s swear by them- would we all be shooting those if the factory would have continued to make them? I probably would be.  

 

Mike:

 

Thanks for the response.  I wondered why the 929 was competitive when a 627 seems to offer more versatility.  I understand now why the 929 was in demand and is still popular.

 

I also think T-Tone has a really practical point about handloading given apparently he and his wife only shoot 9mm's.  Makes sense to me.

 

Technically cheaper to shoot a 929 by not buying Starline brass?  Not sure I get that one.  

 

I picked up a 627 - 4 a year ago used.  Didn't look used to me but that's what was advertised.   Never knew they were popular but can understand why.  Very nimble. 

 

GG

[pskys2]

14 hours ago, gargoil66 said:

Bill:

 

Roger but a 627 also has eight rounds and can take a number of different cartridge designs.  The 929 can take only a 9mm case.  Probably a .380 too.  627 can take .38 Spl, .357, Short and Long Colt.  Yours takes .38 Super.  Unfortunately mine won't unless I get a .030 thickness moon clip. 

 

So, when it comes to competition -- what does a 929 offer that tilts a decision towards one as opposed to a 627?

 

GG

 

 

929 can also use 38 short colt just can't use the 9mm moon clips have to use the 627 moon clips and they worked good.

Edited December 8, 2022 by pskys2

[testosterone]

12 minutes ago, gargoil66 said:

Technically cheaper to shoot a 929 by not buying Starline brass?  Not sure I get that one. 

Its because, mostly anyways, for the moonclip guns, single headstamp is required.    I shot 38 long colt, some chose short colt, some did 38 spec, but in any case a majority of us opted to shoot starline brass.   

 

If you want to, say load for a semi-serious practice/match schedule and not be at the reloading press every week, then you want 20k pieces of brass.    20k pieces of once fired single headstamp 9mm brass can be had VERY inexpensively compared to that amount of new starline...

[ysrracer]

2 minutes ago, testosterone said:

Its because, mostly anyways, for the moonclip guns, single headstamp is required.    I shot 38 long colt, some chose short colt, some did 38 spec, but in any case a majority of us opted to shoot starline brass.   

 

If you want to, say load for a semi-serious practice/match schedule and not be at the reloading press every week, then you want 20k pieces of brass.    20k pieces of once fired single headstamp 9mm brass can be had VERY inexpensively compared to that amount of new starline...

Hey Rockefeller, I wish I had 20k primers

[testosterone]

9 minutes ago, ysrracer said:

Hey Rockefeller, I wish I had 20k primers

MWP is laughing at my rookie numbers.   

The whole reloading thing is def on its ear now honestly.  With primers more like .10 a pop now, the cost or reman 9mm ammo from several vendors, at least for practice ammo, is within a few pennies of my cost to load it which for me is a no brainer.   if revolvers weren't stupid I would def be shooting only reman for practice at least, def made that switch for other guns though...

[Fishbreath]

I've always found it a little easier to nail reloads on my 9mm gun, because (disregarding chamfering, which is similar on both) I'm aiming a .357-.358 bullet into a .390 hole instead of a .380 hole, but I'm not totally convinced there's a real difference there.

[testosterone]

13 minutes ago, Fishbreath said:

I'm not totally convinced there's a real difference there

I am not either, but my reload is not as fast as you either.   

[gargoil66]

1 hour ago, testosterone said:

MWP is laughing at my rookie numbers.   

The whole reloading thing is def on its ear now honestly.  With primers more like .10 a pop now, the cost or reman 9mm ammo from several vendors, at least for practice ammo, is within a few pennies of my cost to load it which for me is a no brainer.   if revolvers weren't stupid I would def be shooting only reman for practice at least, def made that switch for other guns though...

For years I bought reloaded 9mm because simply put, it was a lot cheaper than me reloading 9mm.

 

That changed and I am back to reloading 9mm which I absolutely hate due to the small size of the brass.  I have a Hornady Lock N Load AP and use all five stations so I have to remove the loaded round and stick in a fresh case.  Manipulating a 9mm case takes me more time because I have to look to orient them for insertion into the shell plate.  Rimmed brass I can feel so I can have it ready to insert.   

 

I think I would go brain dead if I had to load more than five or six hundred rounds at a time on any press. 

 

GG

[erwos]

I'm hardly a top-tier revo competitor, but I like 9mm revolvers because it simplifies my supply chain. Reconfiguring my press to do a run of 38/357 is a pain, plus I have to stock different components. With 9mm, all I need to do is make sure I'm using Federal primers. If I could get an R8 or TRR8 in 9mm, I'd probably dump 38/357 entirely.

[testosterone]

41 minutes ago, gargoil66 said:

reloading 9mm

i am buying it for .21c a round reman, this is very close to me doing it and that is assuming zero brass cost.

[testosterone]

4 hours ago, pskys2 said:

929 can also use 38 short colt

I believe they will also chamber 9x21 if someone cared to do it.

I do know an old time uspsa shooter locally that bought a whole barrel of 9x21 starline brass at an auction, he was the only one shooting a non 9mm at matches and not scurrying around picking up all his brass, unlike the 38 super shooters...

[ysrracer]

15 minutes ago, testosterone said:

 

 

15 minutes ago, testosterone said:

I believe they will also chamber 9x21 if someone cared to do it.

 

Yes I've done it in my 929.

[gargoil66]

1 hour ago, erwos said:

I'm hardly a top-tier revo competitor, but I like 9mm revolvers because it simplifies my supply chain. Reconfiguring my press to do a run of 38/357 is a pain, plus I have to stock different components. With 9mm, all I need to do is make sure I'm using Federal primers. If I could get an R8 or TRR8 in 9mm, I'd probably dump 38/357 entirely.

ER:

 

Ditto and for those reasons I will probably stick with the .38.  The 9mm gave me a really bad taste when we were issued the M-9.  Not sure why either.  The 1911's were ready for the junk pile by the mid 80's.  Must be some sort of prejudice I guess.  Do have a 1911 that can take 9mm, .38 Super, and .45 ACP all on the same frame and the Colt 9mm upper has worked just fine.  Shoot a lot of 9mm in my PCC too.  Not impressed with the cartridge but am impressed that the PCC I bought out of the box has shot every brand and bullet weight of 9mm I have put through it.  And from mixed range brass.  Wish someone made a PCC for .38 Super. 

 

GG