We all know it, but does it matter?

[Boomstick303]

It cannot be that broken.  Its most likely the main reason USPSA has had the staying power that it has had.

[BritinUSA]

1 hour ago, Boomstick303 said:

It cannot be that broken.  Its most likely the main reason USPSA has had the staying power that it has had.

If the classifiers were dropped tomorrow there would be only two impacts on the sport. L1 clubs would save money and USPSA would lose money.

[Zincwarrior]

1 minute ago, BritinUSA said:

If the classifiers were dropped tomorrow there would be only two impacts on the sport. L1 clubs would save money and USPSA would lose money.

I disagree with that.  Most local matches are made up of expendables like myself. I am not going to win a match, so in order to be interested I was to see how I do versus those with a similar skill level as myself. 

[motosapiens]

Just now, Zincwarrior said:

I disagree with that.  Most local matches are made up of expendables like myself. I am not going to win a match, so in order to be interested I was to see how I do versus those with a similar skill level as myself. 

That attitude is why you're not going to win a match. You sound like you are content to just stagnate.

I don't know how good I can get, so I measure myself against the match winner, and try to reach a higher percentage of his score. At majors I focus on the division winner, at locals I focus on the overall winner (because sometimes there's no heat in my division so i 'win' because no one good is there).

 

[Zincwarrior]

Just now, motosapiens said:

That attitude is why you're not going to win a match. You sound like you are content to just stagnate.

I don't know how good I can get, so I measure myself against the match winner, and try to reach a higher percentage of his score. At majors I focus on the division winner, at locals I focus on the overall winner (because sometimes there's no heat in my division so i 'win' because no one good is there).

 

Talk to me when walking most days is a thing and you don't have a kid's vision any more. 

 

I do also, but I am realistic enough to know I'm not going to beat that kid with the open gun, whom I'm old enough to be their grandpa. 

 

If you don't want to be classified, don't be classified. 

[motosapiens]

3 minutes ago, Zincwarrior said:

Talk to me when walking most days is a thing and you don't have a kid's vision any more. 

 

I'm 61 with bad eyes and multiple knee surgeries, but I still ignore my classification and I can still measure my improvement by increasing my percentage of the division winner. That percentage is typically going to be more consistent than the guys in my class, depending on who shows up and how much they sandbag or grandbag.

 

I do pay attention to the  old guys category tho, at least at majors.

 

but wutever, I'm glad you're still out shooting. It doesn't really matter if you find motivation in something different than I do. cheers.

Edited September 14, 2022 by motosapiens

[Boomstick303]

16 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

If the classifiers were dropped tomorrow there would be only two impacts on the sport. L1 clubs would save money and USPSA would lose money.

 

So out of touch with reality, I continue to sit here in awe. 

 

Impact how.  If people continue to shoot in dynamic shooting sports or if USPSA exists? 

 

USPSA would fail as an organization after a number of years if  you take the classification system away.  What would be the point of paying your membership.  The rule set could still exist, and some may even use it but no one would pay USPSA anything.  What is the purpose of USPSA without a classification system?  They wouldn't have one, but a rule set where many exist already to fill the void left.  Many outlaw matches that currently do NOT use USPSA rule sets.  While many local level shooters don't care about USPSA in particular, I still hear conversations about their classification and their goals associated to it.  I also see local match after match with all but maybe one or two people up do date on their membership dues.  

 

11 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

That attitude is why you're not going to win a match.

 

How many at the local level actually have this goal?  Most of the local shooters I see are there for the social aspect and/or to improve understanding they will most likely never win a match.   At the very least maintain their current skill level.   

Edited September 14, 2022 by Boomstick303

[Zincwarrior]

Quote

I'm 61 with bad eyes and multiple knee surgeries, but I still ignore my classification and I can still measure my improvement by increasing my percentage of the division winner. That percentage is typically going to be more consistent than the guys in my class, depending on who shows up and how much they sandbag or grandbag.

 

I do pay attention to the  old guys category tho, at least at majors.

 

but wutever, I'm glad you're still out shooting. It doesn't really matter if you find motivation in something different than I do. cheers.

 

Fair enough. I disagree but I respect your position. 

Edited September 14, 2022 by Zincwarrior

[RJH]

Dang who would have known this thread would have turned into an old off

[Darqusoull13]

On 9/12/2022 at 8:22 PM, rowdyb said:

That almost no one shoots their classification percentage at nationals? Of the 60ish Carry Optics GMs at the last Nationals only 3 shot a 95% or better in the match for example.

 

Doesn't matter the division or classification. If you've shot a Nats or trolled the results you've seen this over and over. 

 

But does this matter? To the average member? To someone trying to be a contender at that level? To the value or validity of the classification system?

 

I know my thoughts, interested in yours.

Doesn't affect me in the slightest. I went straight from CO Nats to a PRS match Sat/Sun and had a blast at both matches. Keep drinking that Hater-Aid.

What's hilarious is people saying, "You should only hit GM if you shoot it in a match." Congratulations bud, you're now competing against Nils, who stomped a paid pro "Simon". 3rd place Brantley finishing under 95% means sorry dude, you didn't get a GM class despite finishing 3rd out of 400 shooters because the internet says you're a paper GM.  

Next people will claim Sal and Kimmy aren't GM's because they didn't shoot 95% of the winner. 

Here's an even more fun example: Area 8 Open - Sailer 100%, some non-GM chump named Tilley 94.59%, random guy named KC something or other 89.01%, and a guy in some NASCAR-like yellow named "Les-gar" at 86.22. Good luck to anyone showing up to a match Sailer is shooting Open hitting GM. 

Snark aside, attaining GM closely parallels attaining black belt in a martial art in competition. You have demonstrated each and every skill necessary to merit the rank, but in competition there are levels. Are you not an extremely high level black belt if you only get 2nd in the Olympics? Travis Stevens is terrifying. 

[BritinUSA]

IPSC has a classification system that is apparently optional as it does not appear to get much use. So IPSC continues to grow despite an under-utilized classification system. This would seem to negate the opinion that the sport only survives due to classifiers.

[Boomstick303]

11 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

IPSC has a classification system that is apparently optional as it does not appear to get much use.

 

Is this an opinion, word of mouth or are you actually going to use data to back this statement up?  I have no idea how ISPC works, but the fact that shooters do not have to reset at their matches tells me there is something working completely different in regards to finances.  

 

11 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

This would seem to negate the opinion that the sport only survives due to classifiers.

 

Stop classification in USPSA and watch membership dues dry up.  What are people paying for exactly.  USPSA is loosing money with the current system.  Are people going to keep the lights on when the well runs dry?

 

Shooting sports would still exist.  USPSA without classifications, not so much.  I think you are conflating to two.  

 

Comical.

Edited September 14, 2022 by Boomstick303

[Racinready300ex]

39 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

IPSC has a classification system that is apparently optional as it does not appear to get much use. So IPSC continues to grow despite an under-utilized classification system. This would seem to negate the opinion that the sport only survives due to classifiers.

 

I think you're off the mark on this one. You're underestimating the power that giving people something to work towards has. Have you ever played video games? You might be blown away by the amount of time people will spend to level up in a video game. That industry is huge, and there is a reason so many games are structured like that. 

 

I don't know much about ipsc either, how many members do they have not including the us? How much do they grow year over year? What's the demographic of the membership? Can you shoot IPSC with out being a member?

 

Also, I know in some countries in order to own a gun you need to be a competitor. This leads people to joining IPSC just so they can own a firearm. How much does that inflate their numbers? I think you may be forming a opinion with out enough information. 

[konkapot]

When I first started the classification system was an excellent way to measure progress and validate a training program. As I got better and moved up it became less relevant. I just try to perform my best at any match I go to. 

[rowdyb]

19 hours ago, Darqusoull13 said:

Doesn't affect me in the slightest. I went straight from CO Nats to a PRS match Sat/Sun and had a blast at both matches. Keep drinking that Hater-Aid.

What's hilarious is people saying, "You should only hit GM if you shoot it in a match." Congratulations bud, you're now competing against Nils, who stomped a paid pro "Simon". 3rd place Brantley finishing under 95% means sorry dude, you didn't get a GM class despite finishing 3rd out of 400 shooters because the internet says you're a paper GM.  

Next people will claim Sal and Kimmy aren't GM's because they didn't shoot 95% of the winner. 

Here's an even more fun example: Area 8 Open - Sailer 100%, some non-GM chump named Tilley 94.59%, random guy named KC something or other 89.01%, and a guy in some NASCAR-like yellow named "Les-gar" at 86.22. Good luck to anyone showing up to a match Sailer is shooting Open hitting GM. 

Snark aside, attaining GM closely parallels attaining black belt in a martial art in competition. You have demonstrated each and every skill necessary to merit the rank, but in competition there are levels. Are you not an extremely high level black belt if you only get 2nd in the Olympics? Travis Stevens is terrifying. 

You know me in real life, I am not a hater of you in any way.

[WFargo]

Regarding classification in IPSC: 

I shoot in the Netherlands and I received my classification through matches. 

Our level II matches are 'classifier' matches (the match itself is the classifier, there are no classifier stages)

(almost all our matches are Level II matches.  Level I's are only for 'beginners' like a sort of training match for newcomers. Level III's are our 'international matches' and our Dutch National Championship match)

So in a competition season you need to reach a certain percentage to attain your classification. 

You can start out unclassified in the first season and if you shoot, let's say, 10 matches a year and reach 80% on average from the competition winner, you become A class.    We have no M or GM class. (as far as I know)

Sounds simple but it also isn't perfect, because I became A class after the first season, only because I started out in Revolver with very limited number of participants and the top shooter was good, but not Open or Limited good, if you understand what I'm saying. 

 

And honestly, here in the Netherlands, we have around 10 to 15 matches a year, total. And the top shooters attend almost all the matches (because we have so few)

That means you almost always measure yourself against the best in the country, so your classification actually is quite realistic... (when looking at our national level)

 

 

Edited September 16, 2022 by WFargo

[BritinUSA]

It sounds very similar to what we had in the UK; We had out local matches which were just practice and then during the warmer weather the ‘classifier’ matches would open up and people would travel all across the country to shoot them.

 

As with the Netherlands, most of our top shooters would compete at all the matches. In our system, we could drop the lowest score from every 5 matches shot. So shoot 10 matches we could drop the lowest two scores.

 

The year before a European/World shoot, they would designate 4-5 matches as qualifiers for the teams.

[Chills1994]

On 9/14/2022 at 12:03 PM, Boomstick303 said:

(snip)…

 

USPSA would fail as an organization after a number of years if  you take the classification system away.  …. (/snip)

 

You say that like it’s a bad thing.

 

 

 

[BritinUSA]

2 hours ago, Chills1994 said:

You say that like it’s a bad thing.

 

[Racinready300ex]

9 hours ago, WFargo said:

Regarding classification in IPSC: 

I shoot in the Netherlands and I received my classification through matches. 

Our level II matches are 'classifier' matches (the match itself is the classifier, there are no classifier stages)

(almost all our matches are Level II matches.  Level I's are only for 'beginners' like a sort of training match for newcomers. Level III's are our 'international matches' and our Dutch National Championship match)

 

 

This is vary different, and could likely be why our classification system is much more popular. You mentioned you only have 10-15 matches a year. Here, level 1's aren't just for new shooters, and they happen all the time. A lot of places there is a level one with in a few hours drive every weekend. While there may be only 5 level 2's and one level 3 all year. Most of our shooters will never even shoot level 2. A local level 1 could have 60-80 regulars and maybe 6-12 of them travel to majors. 

 

When you consider how much bigger and more spread out we are, yet we have less major matches. That's probably why so many people only shoot level 1 here. And then the only way they can know how they stack up is the classification system. 

 

[Nolan]

5 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

This is vary different, and could likely be why our classification system is much more popular. You mentioned you only have 10-15 matches a year. Here, level 1's aren't just for new shooters, and they happen all the time. A lot of places there is a level one with in a few hours drive every weekend. While there may be only 5 level 2's and one level 3 all year. Most of our shooters will never even shoot level 2. A local level 1 could have 60-80 regulars and maybe 6-12 of them travel to majors. 

 

When you consider how much bigger and more spread out we are, yet we have less major matches. That's probably why so many people only shoot level 1 here. And then the only way they can know how they stack up is the classification system. 

 

 

Where's the like button?  

 

Nolan