How do official ROs feel about floppy cloth rifle scabbards?

[RickT]

I don't particularly like to back away from the box because the only way the shooter an R&R his rimfire/PCC rifle to to spread the scabbard out on the table and back up 2-3 feet to get the muzzle started in the scabbard without using his/her off hand.  It's just very awkward gun handling IMO. 

[Sarge]

Don’t have an opinion on that situation but I still believe they should not be allowed because a trigger can be squeezed through them

[Dirty_J]

Don’t like it all you want. 8.3.8.7 is a simple statement.
 

Covers the trigger guard and trigger.
 

Doesn’t say anything about material, construction or the ability to press the trigger. 
 

 

[RaylanGivens]

Don't see them too often down here...  Most people seem to use zippered cases or converted baby carts.

 

They seem to offer a greater chance to sweep yourself, but no issues as long as the shooter is careful.

[zzt]

The intent of 8.3.8.7 is to PREVENT access to the trigger.  A soft, floppy case does not do that.  

[Dirty_J]

16 minutes ago, zzt said:

The intent of 8.3.8.7 is to PREVENT access to the trigger.  A soft, floppy case does not do that.  

That’s obvious. But it’s not how the rule is written. It’s no different than holster material selection. 
 

If it’s a rule issue.. get it fixed. But don’t go around making stuff up and harassing shooters that are following rules as they are written. 
 

Your dislike of something doesn’t make it a rule violation. 
 

It sounds like SCSA needs a rule similar to USPSA’s 5.2.6 to satisfy your needs. 

Edited July 11, 2022 by Dirty_J

[bigdawgbeav]

Personally I'm not a fan.  I've had to DQ a few people because they swept themselves either removing or putting back in.  But they are legal and when ROing someone with one of these I'm even more vigilant to make sure they don't DQ.

[Nolan]

I've never understood why people will use some homemade blanket/pajama leg/tablecloth scabbard instead of just buying a cheap $20-30 airsoft soft case like this

They come in various colors and lengths, full length zipper makes it very easy to bag/unbag without sweeping yourself or others.  I have a bunch of these, they last several years.

 

Nolan

https://www.evike.com/products/32016/

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

https://www.evike.com/products/49050/

 

 

 

 

Edited July 11, 2022 by Nolan

[bigdawgbeav]

one shooter on my squad this weekend was using one of these:

https://www.doublealpha.biz/us/ced-pcc-rifle-sleeve

It half-zips so that you are unable to unzip it past your hand.  The problem is trying to get your rifle out and back in without sweeping yourself.  I imagine the purpose of this particular sleeve is more for transporting to and from the range and using a safe table to cart your rifle.

 

TacSol used to sell sleeves as well and I've seen a number of them on the range.  Same with Ruger.  I haven't seen anything homemade though.

[Sarge]

3 hours ago, Dirty_J said:

That’s obvious. But it’s not how the rule is written. It’s no different than holster material selection. 
 

If it’s a rule issue.. get it fixed. But don’t go around making stuff up and harassing shooters that are following rules as they are written. 
 

Your dislike of something doesn’t make it a rule violation. 
 

It sounds like SCSA needs a rule similar to USPSA’s 5.2.6 to satisfy your needs. 

Just read every post again and don’t see where anyone harassed a shooter? Sounds like you are “making stuff up”.

[Dirty_J]

Bad RO’s like to formulate and implement their own rules at matches all the time. 
 

I’m happy to hear that’s not the case with the OP and yourself. My mistake!  

[zzt]

1 hour ago, Dirty_J said:

Bad RO’s like to formulate and implement their own rules at matches all the time. 

 

Not at any of the clubs I shoot at.  We have lots of ROs.  Generally there are 3 or 4 on each squad.  Some are CROs.  If there is ever a question, there is a consult.  Plus most of us already have the rule books downloaded to our phones.  Sometimes a first time USPSA RO running a rimfire shooter at an SCSA match will insist on hammer down.  We explain the rules for rimfire and that takes care of it.  No one makes up rules.  If they did, the other ROs would be all over them.

[Sarge]

18 minutes ago, zzt said:

 

Not at any of the clubs I shoot at.  We have lots of ROs.  Generally there are 3 or 4 on each squad.  Some are CROs.  If there is ever a question, there is a consult.  Plus most of us already have the rule books downloaded to our phones.  Sometimes a first time USPSA RO running a rimfire shooter at an SCSA match will insist on hammer down.  We explain the rules for rimfire and that takes care of it.  No one makes up rules.  If they did, the other ROs would be all over them.

Same here. We even have an RM or two in the mix occasionally. Good RO’s are the norm here.

[twodownzero]

6 hours ago, zzt said:

The intent of 8.3.8.7 is to PREVENT access to the trigger.  A soft, floppy case does not do that.  

Rules don't have intent, they have meaning.  If the meaning is satisfied, your interpretation is over.

[zzt]

17 hours ago, twodownzero said:

Rules don't have intent, they have meaning.  If the meaning is satisfied, your interpretation is over.

 

That is a silly statement.

[Dirty_J]

6 minutes ago, zzt said:

 

That is a silly statement.

It’s not remotely silly.
 

Someone applying intent beyond the written words is when things get silly. 

 

Just like on a WSB… words matter… and something being omitted or not spelled out is not an invitation for everyone to throw their opinions in to the ring. 
 

The RM can make a call when something is grey… but not whomever happens to be holding a timer at that particular time. 

Edited July 12, 2022 by Dirty_J

[Sarge]

57 minutes ago, Dirty_J said:

It’s not remotely silly.
 

Someone applying intent beyond the written words is when things get silly. 

 

Just like on a WSB… words matter… and something being omitted or not spelled out is not an invitation for everyone to throw their opinions in to the ring. 
 

The RM can make a call when something is grey… but not whomever happens to be holding a timer at that particular time. 

I agree on rules not necessarily having intent. This leads to various interpretations as well. But I do believe rules have reasons. In this case “I” believe the rules have a reason, i.e. prevent access to the trigger. “I” feel if a trigger can be manipulated through a thin piece of material access is not prevented.

NOT SAYING I WOULD TAKE ACTION AS AN RO. But the rules need updated to cover it.

[Dirty_J]

13 minutes ago, Sarge said:

But the rules need updated to cover it.

And that’s a fairest statement of the entire thread. 
 

If it’s really a safety issue… it should be clarified through the rules. They don’t update the SCSA rules 5x a year like USPSA? 

[ChuckS]

It was suggested that a review of the definition of gun case/bag in Appendix A3 in any USPSA rulebook may be in order... 

[BentAero]

On 7/11/2022 at 9:29 AM, zzt said:

The intent of 8.3.8.7 is to PREVENT access to the trigger.  A soft, floppy case does not do that.  

 

To say that the intent of 8.3.8.7 is to prevent access to the trigger is a bit misleading. The *entirety* of that paragraph clearly states that "3-Gun Carts may be used" and "...whether or not they are cased" so obviously the trigger is in plain sight with the chamber flag in view.

[twodownzero]

On 7/12/2022 at 8:14 AM, zzt said:

 

That is a silly statement.

 

The rules are the work of a collective body of people, all of which had intent, but the document they produced has no intent, only meaning, hopefully which incorporated what they all thought it would mean when they ultimately voted for it.

 

Words that come from one person can have intent.  Words that come from a collective body have to say what they mean and mean what they say, otherwise they just mean whatever the reader thinks the people who write the words "intended."

 

I prefer to apply the rules as written.  If it leads to a result we don't like (which has happened to me before), the solution is to fix the rules, not to read into the rules some intent that isn't there.

 

Thank flexmoney for the fact that we can all pull our pants up by the bottom of our holsters even if there's a loaded gun in it, which the rule obviously once prohibited.

Edited July 14, 2022 by twodownzero