WSSC Members' Meeting

[bigdawgbeav]

At the WSSC there is going to be a Members' Meeting on Saturday.  As of right now I'm planning on attending.  Wanted to reach out for input as to what subjects you might like to see addressed.

 

I have a couple so far:

• SC-Only RO certification (not just an add-on)
• More stages - USPSA has dozens of different classifiers to choose from, maybe time to add some more options to SC?
• Reduced distance options for Speed Option and Outer Limits

Feel free to make your own suggestions.  I'll try to represent as much as I can.

[Hoops]

2 hours ago, bigdawgbeav said:

At the WSSC there is going to be a Members' Meeting on Saturday.  As of right now I'm planning on attending.  Wanted to reach out for input as to what subjects you might like to see addressed.

 

I have a couple so far:

• SC-Only RO certification (not just an add-on)
• More stages - USPSA has dozens of different classifiers to choose from, maybe time to add some more options to SC?
• Reduced distance options for Speed Option and Outer Limits

Feel free to make your own suggestions.  I'll try to represent as much as I can.

Good points.  

 

* Fully support adding stages.  IMO, if nothing else gets changed, adding more stages using the same combination of plate sizes would be tops on my list.

* Outer Limits - numerous comments have been made regarding removing movement and/or alternatively, reducing the 4 second per string penalty.

 

Perhaps seeking out Zack Jones before the meeting as he has been following these topics and is now the SCSA official Coordinator.  

 

 

[ZackJones]

5 hours ago, Hoops said:

* Fully support adding stages.  IMO, if nothing else gets changed, adding more stages using the same combination of plate sizes would be tops on my list.

* Outer Limits - numerous comments have been made regarding removing movement and/or alternatively, reducing the 4 second per string penalty.

 

Perhaps seeking out Zack Jones before the meeting as he has been following these topics and is now the SCSA official Coordinator.  

 I expect I'll be doing a lot of talking with competitors next week prior to and after the membership meeting. 

 

New stages - This is something I want to give some serious consideration to. One immediate idea which I'm not sure if it's a good one or not is to take the 8 existing stages and make smaller more compact versions of them. Modify 5 to Go to be a straight diagonal line without the big swing to the right for the stop plate. That would permit indoor ranges or ranges that prohibit shooting into the berm to run an official stage. Close up the spacing so that it can be run on smaller bays. That would be the primary objective of new stages, IMO. Smaller, tighter stages so that indoor ranges could run them. 

 

Outer Limits - I really want to do an analysis of movement between boxes and in my copious (ha ha) spare time next week I plan to do some timing. I think movement is here to stay on that one but dropping from 4 to 3 just seems like the right thing to do, IMO. 

 

 

[PractricalUse]

I have read many posts regarding the movement in the one SC stage.  My personal opinion is why?  Only one stage has movement - what does it prove except that someone old or with movement challenges gets a penalty.  Given the overwhelming lack of movement in SC, I personally believe that the movement is a carryover form the USPSA background of those who originally got SC going.  One option, if keeping movemnt is really that important, put the boxes right next to each other.  Then you have to move, but only one step.  Personally, I would like to see the movement eliminated completely.

 

Regards, Old Guy Aged 76 (Completly unbiased????)

[Toolguy]

There are also people with disabilities (wheelchair, etc.) that could shoot SC if not for the movement stage.

[Hoops]

Zack, I know from your post and BOD minutes that Peak Times will be reviewed after the WWSC match.  It is wonderful to see the super fast times.....but generally by no more than around 12% in the class.  In fact, this percentage holds up in the GM class.  Hopefully there will be consideration of the 88% that can't beat Peak Times.  If there is a concern with too many people getting in the GM (by ratio), I would suggest that it's not the Total Peak time but rather a funtion of how many times a person shoots each stage in hopes of getting lucky with hot run.  Stage by Stage and not by Match.  FWIW.....of the 88%, many are Seniors and Super Seniors who provide a lot of finacial support to SCSA matches.

 

As for 2 added stages that would physically fit in most range bays, at least a classification could be earned accross 8 stages without OL or SO which is better than the current 4 to 6 stages for many ranges that can't shoot those stages.

 

Have a great time there................thanks for listening and your support of SCSA.

[RaylanGivens]

On 4/21/2022 at 12:17 PM, bigdawgbeav said:

At the WSSC there is going to be a Members' Meeting on Saturday.  As of right now I'm planning on attending.  Wanted to reach out for input as to what subjects you might like to see addressed.

 

I have a couple so far:

• SC-Only RO certification (not just an add-on)
• More stages - USPSA has dozens of different classifiers to choose from, maybe time to add some more options to SC?
• Reduced distance options for Speed Option and Outer Limits

Feel free to make your own suggestions.  I'll try to represent as much as I can.

 

Troy discussed this in one of his recent NROI articles...  He is dead set against it...  The timing of his article makes me wonder if it was preemptive for this discussion...  I'm not against it, this is just a heads up.

[EarlKeese]

And yet Troy says he doesn't make the rules, he only enforces them.

Edited April 24, 2022 by EarlKeese

[xpierrat]

I believe Troy's ( USPSA ) thinking is that they want more USPSA certified RO's available for USPSA matches so making everyone take the full class will give them this... what they fail to realize is that there are many.... many current certified RO's that will never RO a USPSA match EVER! for many reasons.... mine is I am too slow and old to safely do so.... and in fact have not even shot a USPSA match in many years.   Providing a way to have certified SCSA RO's would benefit  SC and not be a loss to USPSA....and in some cases would provide a stepping stone to build the RO corps for USPSA certification and the CRO  RM positions.  I was told that the basic safety/rules are the same so there is no need for a separate class... sorry but there are a huge amount of rules that are different..... just the basic scoring knowledge alone is a determinate to some one only interested in SC

 

The time for SC to stand on its own is here

 

[Hoops]

2 minutes ago, xpierrat said:

I believe Troy's ( USPSA ) thinking is that they want more USPSA certified RO's available for USPSA matches so making everyone take the full class will give them this... what they fail to realize is that there are many.... many current certified RO's that will never RO a USPSA match EVER! for many reasons.... mine is I am too slow and old to safely do so.... and in fact have not even shot a USPSA match in many years.   Providing a way to have certified SCSA RO's would benefit  SC and not be a loss to USPSA....and in some cases would provide a stepping stone to build the RO corps for USPSA certification and the CRO  RM positions.  I was told that the basic safety/rules are the same so there is no need for a separate class... sorry but there are a huge amount of rules that are different..... just the basic scoring knowledge alone is a determinate to some one only interested in SC

 

The time for SC to stand on its own is here

 

Agree.  SCSA should have a program for RO cert separate from USPSA.  Why the resistance?

[Gregg K]

14 hours ago, RaylanGivens said:

 

Troy discussed this in one of his recent NROI articles...  He is dead set against it...  The timing of his article makes me wonder if it was preemptive for this discussion...  I'm not against it, this is just a heads up.

This is very disappointing. I would love to have some certified Steel Challenge RO's at the matches. I'm pretty sure that I'm one of few in my local area, maybe the only since I've never met another. The plain facts are my local guys are never going to go through a USPSA certification to get a Steel Challenge endorsement. USPSA is a bunch of running around, my guys don't want to move 6 feet between 2 boxes on one stage.

[motosapiens]

7 hours ago, Hoops said:

Agree.  SCSA should have a program for RO cert separate from USPSA.  Why the resistance?

i think it would be a pain to try to schedule separate RO seminars.  right now you can take the uspsa RO class and it takes almost no time and effort to get the steel certification as well. If there were a steel-only certification, would you be able to do it in less than a day and a half?

[xpierrat]

2 hours ago, motosapiens said:

i think it would be a pain to try to schedule separate RO seminars.  right now you can take the uspsa RO class and it takes almost no time and effort to get the steel certification as well. If there were a steel-only certification, would you be able to do it in less than a day and a half?

Yea I believe you could do it in a day.... not having to learn the complexities of USPSA scoring alone will save a large amount of time... should not need any time out on the range either...  could all be done in the classroom   a experienced SC RO could teach a certified class with a proper text book  IMHO

 

[RaylanGivens]

9 hours ago, Gregg K said:

This is very disappointing. I would love to have some certified Steel Challenge RO's at the matches. I'm pretty sure that I'm one of few in my local area, maybe the only since I've never met another. The plain facts are my local guys are never going to go through a USPSA certification to get a Steel Challenge endorsement. USPSA is a bunch of running around, my guys don't want to move 6 feet between 2 boxes on one stage.

 

We shoot a lot of USPSA matches...  Several per week...  Almost all of or SCSA RO's come from our pool of USPSA RO's and CRO's...  Several of us have taken the SC Endorsement...  very painless...  all online.

 

Troy also mentioned in his article that someone with a primary interest in SC should tell the instructor during the class and he would then take some time to explain some of the differences between SC and USPSA matches...  SCSA is certainly the step child in this arrangement... 

[RaylanGivens]

5 hours ago, motosapiens said:

i think it would be a pain to try to schedule separate RO seminars.  right now you can take the uspsa RO class and it takes almost no time and effort to get the steel certification as well. If there were a steel-only certification, would you be able to do it in less than a day and a half?

 

They schedule separate RO and CRO classes...  And they aren't free...  The USPSA gets paid for them...

[RaylanGivens]

2 hours ago, xpierrat said:

Yea I believe you could do it in a day.... not having to learn the complexities of USPSA scoring alone will save a large amount of time... should not need any time out on the range either...  could all be done in the classroom   a experienced SC RO could teach a certified class with a proper text book  IMHO

 

 

The second day of the RO class is mostly running shooters on a test stage...  I think it's important to run some actual shooters in the RO class before you run shooters in a real match... 

[cferree]

On 4/24/2022 at 2:15 PM, Gregg K said:

This is very disappointing. I would love to have some certified Steel Challenge RO's at the matches. I'm pretty sure that I'm one of few in my local area, maybe the only since I've never met another. The plain facts are my local guys are never going to go through a USPSA certification to get a Steel Challenge endorsement. USPSA is a bunch of running around, my guys don't want to move 6 feet between 2 boxes on one stage.

I couldn't agree more.  There's no reason for SCSA shooters to spend two days learning a lot about USPSA and a little about SCSA.  Most of the SCSA shooters I shoot with don't shoot USPSA and don't plan to.  

The classroom component could be handled online (several 1-2 hour sessions).  The on range check off (running shooters on live stages) could be handled several ways.  One that was discussed at several majors in the SE in 2019 was to have 1-2 people per state take an NROI class on how to do the on range check off.  I told the folks I talked to at the GA and SC matches that year that I'd be willing to travel to a centralized location to take the "class".  I live in NE GA and could travel to matches in Northern GA and Northern South Carolina to do the check off.  Yes, it would take some support from HQ to schedule the matches we'd have to attend to check off new RO's, but that's what they get paid for.  The biggest issue with this type of certification is USPSA (NROI) doesn't make any money from it.

[bigdawgbeav]

another idea came to me to consider is moving the WSSC to the end of the year, maybe in October.  Having it in April (for those of us in the north and don't get to shoot in the winter much) leaves less time to prepare.  Moving to end of the year would then, more or less, the unofficial end of the season.

[Thomas H]

On 4/24/2022 at 8:26 PM, xpierrat said:

Yea I believe you could do it in a day.... not having to learn the complexities of USPSA scoring alone will save a large amount of time... should not need any time out on the range either...  could all be done in the classroom   a experienced SC RO could teach a certified class with a proper text book  IMHO

 

 

Disagree strongly with the part in bold.  Quite frankly, the part where most new ROs need practice and work is literally how they run shooters, and knowing what their areas of responsibility are while on the stage.   (The USPSA class should include more of it, IMO, on a stage where movement actually occurs so new ROs learn how THAT sort of thing works.)

 

I (like most people) have had people run the timer for me who had no idea what they were doing.  Screwed up range commands, screwed up timer-work, messed up scoring, not calling misses correctly, not handling scoring disputes correctly....massive pain in the posterior.

 

I personally think that while a SC-only certification class could be shorter than a USPSA certification class, it should still end up taking an entire day, at least half of which would be on the range.  (Not to mention that in SC, the ROs still need to know all the parts of procedural rules, DQ rules, equipment and firearm rules, etc, which takes longer than people think, though at least some of that can be done online.  The in-class learning is still going to take time.)

 

I also disagree with the basic idea that an experienced RO could teach a certification class, primarily due to the concept that just because someone knows something, doesn't mean they can actually teach it to other people.  They might be able to SAY it, but that doesn't mean they'll be doing it in any fashion that will let other people learn it and be able to retain it and understand it.

 

Whether or not I think it would be useful to have SC-only RO classes (or whether or not we'd get any more people taking them, because it isn't like people need to RUN in the USPSA RO class, so if that is their excuse that's nonsense), I don't really see how a SC-only class is going to be a ton shorter than the SC one.  At the very least, it'll take a full day, which will need to include time on the range.  The people who can't be bothered to take the USPSA RO class probably won't really take the SC one, either, in my opinion.  They'd have to actually spend time, money, and mental effort learning how to do something. 

[Gregg K]

6 hours ago, Thomas H said:

The people who can't be bothered to take the USPSA RO class probably won't really take the SC one, either, in my opinion.  They'd have to actually spend time, money, and mental effort learning how to do something. 

Any ideas on how to incentivize people to become certified? When I was shooting a lot of USPSA I knew that the best way to avoid having calls made on me or getting bad calls was to know the rules better than the guys running you and be able to advocate for myself in the event of a call. Steel Challenge doesn't have the complexity of USPSA so that may not be a good enough reason for Steel Challenge shooters.

[cferree]

9 hours ago, Thomas H said:

 

  The people who can't be bothered to take the USPSA RO class probably won't really take the SC one, either, in my opinion.  They'd have to actually spend time, money, and mental effort learning how to do something. 

Help me understand this logic/assumption.  I wouldn't take an IDPA SO so I could take a USPSA RO class, but you think SCSA shooters should have to take a USPSA RO class to then have the privilege of taking an adder class for the discipline they actually shoot.

One of the biggest challenges many clubs face isn't getting new shooters, it's having enough RO's to run their matches after they get them.  I know of two clubs in the SE who face that issue almost every month.  

[OpenshooterMclass4lyfe]

24 minutes ago, cferree said:

Help me understand this logic/assumption.  I wouldn't take an IDPA SO so I could take a USPSA RO class, but you think SCSA shooters should have to take a USPSA RO class to then have the privilege of taking an adder class for the discipline they actually shoot.

One of the biggest challenges many clubs face isn't getting new shooters, it's having enough RO's to run their matches after they get them.  I know of two clubs in the SE who face that issue almost every month.  

Majority of the stuff in the RO class for uspsa applies to scsa.    The division rules   The safety rules.  A lot of the procedural rules and the scoring.  I don’t really see the analogy of saying “I wouldn’t take an idpa SO so I could take a uspsa ro class.       The nroi is already spread thin with people to teach classes.   To setup a complete other course with different course materials and teachers when majority of the lessons in the uspsa ro class apply seems kind of pointless.    It seems to me that people just like to have things to complain about instead of just going and taking the class. 

[cferree]

OpenshooterAclass- don't see the analogy?  Most of the SCSA matches I shoot have 60-75% SCSA only competitors.  They have no interest in USPSA and/or it's RO class.  

 

As for NROI being spread thin, if most of us who have been RO's/CRO's for decades spoke up on this issue, the Mods would ban us all.  When your cadre isn't growing at the same rate as the organization, then you might need to look in the mirror for the problem.

 

If USPSA didn't want to support SCSA as a standalone discipline, they shouldn't have bought it.  SCSA has no representation at the state level or the Area level.  If Zack hadn't stepped up and donated his time, SCSA would have no voice with the board.  

 

USPSA has no problem taking the money SCSA generates.  It's about time they step up and give SCSA the support it deserves. 

 

FYI, next month is my 30th anniversary as a USPSA member, and I've been a CRO for 11 years.  I'm shooting SCSA more now because of bad knees, not because I don't still love to shoot USPSA.

[Thomas H]

17 hours ago, Gregg K said:

Any ideas on how to incentivize people to become certified?

I wish we knew.    

 

This is a perennial problem in all sorts of organizations---how do you get people to get off their butts and actually HELP OUT?  And the answer is...we don't seem to have a good answer right now.  I know that some clubs will reimburse their shooters for the class fee if they RO at local matches, I know some places will do something similar with varying levels of success.  Other clubs give free matches if people are helping out as an RO for that class, and so on.  Results are...mixed, far as I know.

 

14 hours ago, cferree said:

Help me understand this logic/assumption.  I wouldn't take an IDPA SO so I could take a USPSA RO class, but you think SCSA shooters should have to take a USPSA RO class to then have the privilege of taking an adder class for the discipline they actually shoot.

One of the biggest challenges many clubs face isn't getting new shooters, it's having enough RO's to run their matches after they get them.  I know of two clubs in the SE who face that issue almost every month.  

 

I have no idea what being and IDPA SO has to do with anything.  I DO know that the majority of what you cover in a USPSA RO class, as has been pointed out, is the same as what you'd need for an SC class.  (Stage procedures, RO commands, running shooters, penalties, DQs, divisions and equipment, etc.).   The reason that the SC add-on is so easy is because the people taking ALREADY KNOW the majority of what they need to know to be an RO.  The SC add-on just gives some specifics about the scoring of SC, plus a few other things.  All the rest of what an RO needs to know---they know. 

 

As for "having enough RO's to run their matches after they get them" the rules specifically say that local matches don't need to have certified ROs.  As such, that argument doesn't really have any meaning.  On the other hand, if a club thinks that having certified ROs has value, then that value is probably because the certified ROs have training on being ROs....which is what the RO course is all about.

 

13 hours ago, cferree said:

OpenshooterAclass- don't see the analogy?  Most of the SCSA matches I shoot have 60-75% SCSA only competitors.  They have no interest in USPSA and/or it's RO class.  

 

As for NROI being spread thin, if most of us who have been RO's/CRO's for decades spoke up on this issue, the Mods would ban us all.  When your cadre isn't growing at the same rate as the organization, then you might need to look in the mirror for the problem.

 

If USPSA didn't want to support SCSA as a standalone discipline, they shouldn't have bought it.  SCSA has no representation at the state level or the Area level.  If Zack hadn't stepped up and donated his time, SCSA would have no voice with the board.  

 

USPSA has no problem taking the money SCSA generates.  It's about time they step up and give SCSA the support it deserves. 

 

FYI, next month is my 30th anniversary as a USPSA member, and I've been a CRO for 11 years.  I'm shooting SCSA more now because of bad knees, not because I don't still love to shoot USPSA.

 

Regarding most shooters being SCSA-only shooters....that really doesn't change anything in terms of what ROs need to know to be good ROs.  The RO class for SCSA-only would be very similar to the RO class for USPSA, as has already been pointed out.  As you point out, you are a CRO.  As such, you've been to an RO class.  (Hm.  Have you been to an RO class in the last 3-5 years?  It isn't the same.). Because of that, you should already know that the majority of what is covered in the RO class is safely, procedures, range commands, running shooters, divisions and equpiment, and DQ/procedural offenses.  Sure, there is a section on scoring, which would be replaced by SCSA scoring in an SCSA-only class---but the rest would still have to be covered and pretty much the same.  (And the current SCSA add-on takes what, 30 minutes, tops?  And can be done in pieces over time?)

 

As for "When your cadre isn't growing at the same rate as the organization, then you might need to look in the mirror for the problem." --- that isn't how it works.  After all, the people have to volunteer to be ROs and take the RO class.  That isn't a paid position at local matches (mostly) and getting people to volunteer to help is a problem everywhere.  Literally.  Everywhere.  Or are you attempting to say that every single volunteer organization out there has their "cadre" at fault?  Seems unlikely.

 

Pretty much all of the rest of what you said about USPSA with respect to SCSA is political in nature, and a completely separate argument, so I really don't have any comment about it on THIS topic.

 

 

[cferree]

Thomas - IPDA isn't USPSA and USPSA isn't SCSA.  Just like NHRA and IHRA are both drag racing orgs, but they have different rules and different certifications for the track officials.

If USPSA, as an owner, wants to grow SCSA then they need to support it.  An SCSA RO class could be done online for the classroom component in 4-6, 30 minute to 60 minute sessions.  The running of shooters thru the courses of fire could be done by a group of NROI trained individuals (1-2 per state for smaller states, 3-5 for large states) who do in person check off's for potential RO's that have taken the online courses and passed the test.  It would take some effort to do the scheduling, but wouldn't be that difficult

 

If you think SCSA shooters are going to go to a class to learn about Comstock vs. Virginia Count scoring, popper calibration, shoot throughs, etc. you're kidding yourself.  

 

BTW, how many SCSA matches do you shoot a year?

Edited April 28, 2022 by cferree