USPSA Limited - Shadow 2. Start with hammer down or safety on?

[obx-shadow2]

I have been starting each section with the hammer down but at my last match the  RO was insistent that I start with the safety on my CZ Shadow 2. Not having practiced that I felt like I was all thumbs. I've read part 8.1.2 but I think I need an interpretation... 

[18111811]

8.1.2.3

[HOGRIDER]

Also, 8.1.2.5!

 

Quote

..........If the primary (thumb) safety cannot be applied when the hammer is down, it is not required when the gun is in that condition.

 

[Tunachaser]

8.1.2.3

"Selective action

”chamber loaded with hammer fully down, or

chamber loaded, and hammer cocked with external safety engaged"

 

Note the word or...

 

And what is selective action...8.1.5.4..."

Selective Action

”means that the handgun can be operated in

either “Single Action” or “Double Action” modes"

[zzt]

8.1.2.5 does not apply to the OP's question.   8.1.2.3 just describes the two possible modes for selective action pistols.

 

Typically (and previously) Limited was single action, hammer cocked, thumb safety on.  Hammer down was for Production and CO.  With the current rules there is nothing in D2 specifying single action only.  So I don't see why you cannot start hammer down if you elect to.

 

OP, this confusion arises (IMO) because Some CZs are weird creatures.  On some, the safety CAN be applied with the hammer down.  If it can be, it must be per 8.1.2.5, even though it does absolutely nothing.  If you pull the trigger with the hammer down and TS engaged it will fire.  I don't know what would happen to the gun if you did fire it with the TS on.  Strange CZ makes guns that way.  The even caution about it in the manual.

 

If the TS cannot be engaged on your pistol without applying undo force, it does not have to be on.

 

I'd recommend you start cocked and locked in Limited.  That way you have the same trigger pull for all shots.

[HOGRIDER]

@obx-shadow2As I failed to remember while posting that your thread title mentions your shooting Limited, @zztis correct!

 

I've been shooting Production with my S2 Orange, and it's mandatory the hammer be in the down position.  And for my S2, the thumb safety does not operate with the hammer down.  

 

Also as @zztrecommended, I too would  prefer to shoot the S2 cocked/locked for that first shot which would allow "all" shots to be single action!  

 

Sorry for any confusion I may have created............

 

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

You can start in DA in limited if you want. 
what rule did they reference saying you can’t ?

[RJH]

According to the rule book it is 100% legal for you to start either hammer down safety off, or Hammer back safety on, you get to take your pick.

 

 

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

Like many people that come from striker fire gun getting to the safety takes some training and muscle memory. 
then keeping your thumb up there durning the mag changes so that you don’t bump the safety on is important. 
so if you started with a thin nonexistent safety lever for production or whatever.
until your trained up , forget about the safety and DA to start and have fun.  

 

Edited February 14, 2022 by Superkaratemonkeyfighter

[obx-shadow2]

I find it easier to start hammer down and fire the first round double action. Otherwise I have to shift my grip to get to the safety. My second pistol back in the 80's was a Sig P226 so double to single action doesn't feel awkward. I think this guy focused on the "if it has a safety it has to be used" bit in the rules. I noticed he was shooting a striker fired pistol so maybe he thinks shooting double action is more difficult than I find it to be.

[zzt]

12 hours ago, obx-shadow2 said:

I find it easier to start hammer down and fire the first round double action. Otherwise I have to shift my grip to get to the safety. My second pistol back in the 80's was a Sig P226 so double to single action doesn't feel awkward. I think this guy focused on the "if it has a safety it has to be used" bit in the rules. I noticed he was shooting a striker fired pistol so maybe he thinks shooting double action is more difficult than I find it to be.

 

I think you may be correct.  When 8.1.2.5 was written, I don't think quirky CZs were considered.

 

My CZ is single action, so I'd like you to try something for me.  With your UNLOADED gun, lower the hammer like you usually do and engage the thumb safety.  Then pull the trigger.  Did the DA pull lower the safety before the hammer dropped?  If yes I'm okay with the rule as written.  If no it becomes a safety issue.  I'll recommend a rule change when they ask for recommendations.   

[MikeBurgess]

1 hour ago, zzt said:

 

 

My CZ is single action, so I'd like you to try something for me.  With your UNLOADED gun, lower the hammer like you usually do and engage the thumb safety.  Then pull the trigger.  Did the DA pull lower the safety before the hammer dropped?  If yes I'm okay with the rule as written.  If no it becomes a safety issue.  I'll recommend a rule change when they ask for recommendations.   

On a Tanfoglio, very similar ignition system 

Trying to pull the trigger with the safety applied puts a lot of strain on the ignition parts, the safety if it can be applied (tolerance issue) blocks the sears movement not the hammer or trigger, when pulling the trigger the hammer hooks attempt to move the pivot the sear but due to how little they are moving it there is enough mechanical advantage that it feels like you are flexing parts or pins (likely just taking up slack in the system) you do not get the hard stop you feel on SA with the safety on.

 

[broadside72]

On 2/14/2022 at 8:26 AM, zzt said:

On some, the safety CAN be applied with the hammer down.  If it can be, it must be per 8.1.2.5, even though it does absolutely nothing.  

 

 

This is not correct. 8.1.2.3 allows hammer down, or cocked and locked. There is a comma and an 'and' separating the two conditions. 8.1.2.5 only applies to the latter condition as it is the only part of 8.1.2.3 that references a "safety"

[CHARLES D]

I had the same question a few months ago and was unable to find a rule about the question. So I emailed Troy at (rules@uspsa.org). Troy said Rule 8.1.2.4 covers this question. Also, Rule 8.1.2.3 (Appendix D) Selective Action covers the question.  This is straight from Troy. 

[zzt]

3 hours ago, broadside72 said:

 

This is not correct. 8.1.2.3 allows hammer down, or cocked and locked. There is a comma and an 'and' separating the two conditions. 8.1.2.5 only applies to the latter condition as it is the only part of 8.1.2.3 that references a "safety"

 

Reread 8.1.2.5.  The operative portion for the OP's question is "....This safety must be on while the firearm is loaded in the holster or loaded in any other location stated in the Written Stage Briefing (e.g. table start, in a drawer, etc.), in order to follow 10.5.11.  If the primary (thumb) safety cannot be applied when the hammer is down, it is not required when the gun is in that condition."  If it can be applied it must be.  Emphasis is mine for clarity.

 

49 minutes ago, CHARLES D said:

I had the same question a few months ago and was unable to find a rule about the question. So I emailed Troy at (rules@uspsa.org). Troy said Rule 8.1.2.4 covers this question. Also, Rule 8.1.2.3 (Appendix D) Selective Action covers the question.  This is straight from Troy. 

 

Neither of those rules address the OP's question.  He was instructed by an RO to engage the safety while the hammer was down.  The only possible rule to reference for that action is 8.1.2.5.

Edited February 15, 2022 by zzt

[motosapiens]

2 minutes ago, zzt said:

Neither of those rules address the OP's question.  He was instructed by an RO to engage the safety while the hammer was down.  The only possible rule to reference for that action is 8.1.2.5.

 

It appears the OP was incorrectly instructed by someone who only knows some of the rules. not entirely unheard-of.

[zzt]

Just now, motosapiens said:

 

It appears the OP was incorrectly instructed by someone who only knows some of the rules. not entirely unheard-of.

 

I agree.

[HOGRIDER]

6 hours ago, zzt said:

 

I think you may be correct.  When 8.1.2.5 was written, I don't think quirky CZs were considered.

 

My CZ is single action, so I'd like you to try something for me.  With your UNLOADED gun, lower the hammer like you usually do and engage the thumb safety.  Then pull the trigger.  Did the DA pull lower the safety before the hammer dropped?  If yes I'm okay with the rule as written.  If no it becomes a safety issue.  I'll recommend a rule change when they ask for recommendations.   

@zzt

Just an FYI...............I just checked the S2 Orange, and applying the TS with the hammer cocked is a normal feel; very similar to a 1911/2011 platform.  With the HAMMER DOWN, I can apply the TS; but it takes quite a bit more force and does not feel as "natural" as when the hammer is back.  Also, with the hammer down and the TS applied, the trigger will not allow any noticeable pull.  Again, it doesn't feel as solid/positive as when the hammer is fully cocked and the TS is applied.

 

HTHs

 

[ChuckS]

1 hour ago, HOGRIDER said:

@zzt

Just an FYI...............I just checked the S2 Orange, and applying the TS with the hammer cocked is a normal feel; very similar to a 1911/2011 platform.  With the HAMMER DOWN, I can apply the TS; but it takes quite a bit more force and does not feel as "natural" as when the hammer is back.  Also, with the hammer down and the TS applied, the trigger will not allow any noticeable pull.  Again, it doesn't feel as solid/positive as when the hammer is fully cocked and the TS is applied.

 

HTHs

 

I researched this when the CZs started getting real popular. I discovered this in the TS2 manual:

 

"Due to the special adjustment of the trigger mechanism it is possible to rotate the safety to a "SAFE" position, even when the hammer is on the safety notch, or leaning against the firing pin stop. However, it is not recommended that the safety be engaged while in this state, because forced cocking of the hammer could damage the trigger mechanism.

"

[HOGRIDER]

31 minutes ago, ChuckS said:

I researched this when the CZs started getting real popular. I discovered this in the TS2 manual:

 

"Due to the special adjustment of the trigger mechanism it is possible to rotate the safety to a "SAFE" position, even when the hammer is on the safety notch, or leaning against the firing pin stop. However, it is not recommended that the safety be engaged while in this state, because forced cocking of the hammer could damage the trigger mechanism.

"

@ChuckSThat's a very good point!  I looked through the S2 Owner's manual and also found this statement:

Quote

Engaging the Safety
Push the safety up to the Safety-On position (Fig. 5) until the red warning dot is covered.  The safety in this position blocks the trigger mechanism and slide, thus preventing the pulling of the trigger and operating the slide.  Since the trigger mechanism has been specifically adjusted, it is possible to move the safety onto the "SAFE" position even if the hammer is placed on the safety notch. In this case, however, it is strongly not recommended to engage the safety because the trigger mechanism might be damaged when cocking the hammer by force or pulling the trigger. If damage to the trigger mechanism occurs, let it be repaired by a certified gunsmith.

IMO, I don't think the CZs are designed to have the TS engaged with the hammer down even though it's possible to force it into that position.

 

Thanks for your insight!

 

Edited February 15, 2022 by HOGRIDER
sp

[ChuckS]

21 minutes ago, HOGRIDER said:

@ChuckSThat's a very good point!  I looked through the S2 Owner's manual and also found this statement:

IMO, I don't think the CZs are designed to have the TS engaged with the hammer down even though it's possible to force it into that position.

 

Thanks for your insight!

 

No problem. I forget the details but I saw that you could move the safety with the hammer down on a shadow (or maybe an SP-01) that had been tweaked. Either CGW, CZC or both. That was 10 or more years ago so it is kinda fuzzy  

[broadside72]

2 hours ago, zzt said:

 

Reread 8.1.2.5.  The operative portion for the OP's question is "....This safety must be on while the firearm is loaded in the holster or loaded in any other location stated in the Written Stage Briefing (e.g. table start, in a drawer, etc.), in order to follow 10.5.11.  If the primary (thumb) safety cannot be applied when the hammer is down, it is not required when the gun is in that condition."  If it can be applied it must be.  Emphasis is mine for clarity.

 

 

Neither of those rules address the OP's question.  He was instructed by an RO to engage the safety while the hammer was down.  The only possible rule to reference for that action is 8.1.2.5.

 

You need to reread 8.1.2.3 “Selective action” – chamber loaded with hammer fully down, or chamber loaded, and hammer cocked with external safety engaged
 

So you are supposed to read this as bold or italic, and the italicized portion is the only part that mentions a safety, which means that 8.1.2.5, which is specific to the safety in reference to 8.1.2.1 and 8.1.2.3,  only applies to the italicized portion. 

 

[zzt]

@broadside72 I think you miss the point entirely.  Enough said.

[waktasz]

On 2/15/2022 at 4:12 PM, zzt said:

 

Reread 8.1.2.5.  The operative portion for the OP's question is "....This safety must be on while the firearm is loaded in the holster or loaded in any other location stated in the Written Stage Briefing (e.g. table start, in a drawer, etc.), in order to follow 10.5.11.  If the primary (thumb) safety cannot be applied when the hammer is down, it is not required when the gun is in that condition."  If it can be applied it must be.  Emphasis is mine for clarity.

 

 

Neither of those rules address the OP's question.  He was instructed by an RO to engage the safety while the hammer was down.  The only possible rule to reference for that action is 8.1.2.5.

 

No dude. Just no.

 

Hammer down is all that is required. It doesn't matter if the safety can or can't be applied while the hammer is down, because it is never required, in any division, to apply the safety on a DA/SA gun when the hammer is down. 
 

8.1.2.2 and 8.1.2.3 fully cover this situation, although the last sentence of 8.1.2.5 is a mystery to me because it's nonsense. 

Edited February 23, 2022 by waktasz

[obx-shadow2]

I appreciate all the comments. I think the problem was an RO that only knew "most" of the rules. He was really stuck on "if it has a safety it  must be on". I now have copies of the USPSA rules  appropriately underlined and the page of the owners manual that cautions about damage to the pistol thru misuse of the safety.

 

Meh, so I got to practice shooting my pistol different than I usually do.