Junior Shooter Denied

[George]

If I were the MD you approached, I would have dropped everything and done a quick checkout on your son. If he was solid, you would have been shooting that match.

I extend my sincerest apology that you had to experience that today. I really hope the MD in question get's pointed to this thread so he can read in person about what a total bonehead he was.

Once again, my apologies for this outrageous treatment. Outerlimits already said it, but I second it. Come up to Northern California and shoot with any of us, you won't have that issue around here.

I once heard someone at our local club who should have known better ask me why I had given a shooter safety signoff to a 10 year old shooter who had just demonstrated his ability to me 100%. I asked what his concern was and was told that he might be too small to shoot safely because there could be a chance of him shooting a target at a steep up angle that could put one over the berm. My answer was "that sounds like a stage design problem to me" ;-)

--

Regards,

[Carmoney]

If you are a card-carrying USPSA member, a USPSA club can't deny your entry into the match (unless you're drunk or something like that).

If you are not a USPSA member, a USPSA club will likely require some kind of vetting, perhaps that club's own new shooter class. You could be the IPSC/Steel Challenge/ICORE/Bianchi world champion but that might not satisfy the club's requirements. It might have more to do with liability than safety.

Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. And I was 29 years old, so it wasn't youth discrimination.

Erik makes a good point.....when I shot at one particular club last year I was assigned to a club officer who escorted me through the entire match, just so they could make sure I understood all the safety stuff. Didn't matter that I was 38 years old, didn't matter I'd been a USPSA member for more than 10 years, didn't matter where I'd been in the past, didn't matter what experience I had....all that mattered is I hadn't shot that particular club and they didn't know me from Adam.

They were so darn nice about it, though, that I couldn't possibly get mad at them! And, since during the rest of the week I work as a trial attorney defending civil lawsuits, I can sure respect that club's desire to have very specific safety policies that are followed religiously. God forbid, if something bad ever happened, it would sure be nice to be able to show the jury how careful and diligent those club officers insisted on being.

I guess my point is if Alden was only being "discriminated" against for being a new shooter (not just a young shooter), it's a lot easier to understand and forgive. On the other hand, if a club is going to insist on running people through a safety check, they need to make sure somebody's there to handle it right on the spot, so that new shooters never get turned away like that.

Mike

[carinab]

I'm sooo sorry to hear this. This sport needs more juniors and more ladies. I agree with Mike, it's likely a "new" shooter thing rather than a "junior" shooter thing. Long time ago (I refuse to say how long), I had an extended business trip. Since I'd be there over a couple weeks, I figured I'd try to find a local match to shoot and brought my gear. When I got to the club and tried to sign up, I wasn't allowed to as I didn't have a safety check card or my uspsa membership card. They wouldn't let me shoot despite having my USPSA number because they didn't have the means at the club to verify it.

Alden, just don't let it discourage you. The best way to turn the negative into the positive is to let this event motivate you to practice really hard. Only you will hear the words, "Oh yeah? watch this!" as you display you're skills at the first match you do shoot.

[Ron Ankeny]

When I started USPSA shooting I was 45 years old and a Master or equivalent in several other shooting disciplines. I tried to shoot at a club in Colorado before I received my initial classification and I was turned down. The club required either a current USPSA classification or completion of the new shooter orientation program. I was (still am) pissed, but range rules are range rules.

At our club you would be asked to escort/coach your son through his first match along with the regular range staff. The added pressure of the the old man being close enough to backhand the kid along side the head adds a nice touch.

[j1b]

Alden,

I understand this first experience stinks. Still, you're a shooter. It's in you - so I welcome you to the sport. Inevitably you'll do great things and all of us will be giggling when we see your name at the top of the nationals results thinking back on when we learned you were turned away from your first match. Hang in there. You already are an IPSC shooter - regardless of whether you've shot a match or not. You showed up for the first one ready to go, and that's half the battle.

Dave,

Thanks for bringing your son shooting. Regretful that the experience was bad, but your heart is good. Like all things, this will work itself out and you'll enjoy the incredible pleasure of seeing your son succeed in an awesome sport.

To both of you - Thank You. I'd wish you good luck - but I don't believe you need it. Winners like you make their own luck

J

[Dave Wilson]

I would like to thank everyone who has posted, you have all helped to make a really bad situation more than a bit more tolerable. I have been havinf Alden read all of them as well. He is just amazed there are so many people wishing him well that have never even met him before. I just tell him that it's the high caliber of folks on here..... yeah that WAS bad, but it's been a long day.

I did get a responce from USPSA saying the following in part:

Some USPSA affiliated clubs require shooters to be “safety checked” prior to competing. USPSA has no such requirement. We encourage clubs that do to make the process as convenient and shooter friendly as possible.

Some of our affiliates use public or privately owned facilities over which they do not have primary control. Sometimes those larger entities have minimum ages for specific types of competition. Obviously, our affiliates must adhere to whatever conditions are imposed by the host. If those requirements become too stringent (e.g. prohibiting drawing from a holster or “rapid fire”) then the group will not qualify for USPSA affiliation.

--------------------------------------------------------------

I tend to read in to this probably too much, though it seems that the match director was within his rights to do what he did. There is however often a line between doing what one can by rule and what one SHOULD.

Oh well, it is over for now, and we will probably be visiting our shooting breatherin up in the Sacramento area hopefuly at the end of the month to have his real first match. We are still planning on shooting the Steel Challange and ICORE venues here at the local range, but unless something drastic changes I don't feel especialy warm and fuzz about going to the USPSA local match's. If it were me alone, I would go toe to toe on this one, but not with my son, he really doesn't deserve the drama. It is much easier to drive the 6 hours rather than put up with the local politics. Luckily it is only this venue that is giving the hassle, the others have gone way out of their way to make sure we knew that they wanted us to shoot with them.

This afternoon I took Alden to the local indoor range, got a USPSA target and a roll of tape , and we had our own little match. He deserved to get the trigger time in. In between round it gave us time to talk over what all had happened today and put things in perspective for him. He is no longer taking it quite as personal, and is still looking forward to shooting his first USPSA match. It's really good we have people like those who would not let him shoot, it teaches us how NOT to be.

Thanks again!

Dave Wilson

[AzShooter]

Dave it's great to see Alden having a good attitude. I hope he doesn't give up because of one experience but after reading your posts it sounds like he's not that kind of person.

At one of our local clubs the MD always tells parents that kids under 18 have to show proof of passing an NRA qualification course, either hunter's safety or any other. I never could figure this out. And, it's not enforced equally. Some juniors are more then welcome if the parents are involved with the club.

[ima45dv8]

I would like to thank everyone who has posted, you have all helped to make a really bad situation more than a bit more tolerable.

Although late, please let me add my thanks to you for bringing your son out to shoot a USPSA match, and as a USPSA member offer my apologies for the reception you received. Others have said it here already, but I like to think you wouldn't have had the same experience if you had visited one of the local clubs in some other locale (the Atlanta, GA area, for example).

We have some great Juniors shooting locally and you are welcome any time!

In addition to my USPSA certification of CRO, I am a recent inductee into the firm of "Noyes, Butterfield & Assoc.'s - DRL's On-Demand" (see Bill Noyes for details ) . I'll gladly adopt your son for any matches where someone may think your son needs a special level of attention. Bring him on down!

"........but unless something drastic changes I don't feel especialy warm and fuzz about going to the USPSA local match's."

May I suggest you reconsider this? I've had bad first-experiences at restaurants who occasionally have a bad day, and on other people's urging have given them a second chance, only to find the food and service excellent. Times, taxes, and people change. Please give them a second chance. You might find a home, close to home.

Edited November 13, 2005 by ima45dv8

[Precision40]

I agree that some clubs might have a minimum age, but this MD apparently just didn't want to take the time to help someone out. It's sad that alot of people have this opinion that new shooters (especially juniors) are unsafe and shouldn't be allowed on the range until they've "paid their dues" Which is complete b.s.

As a matter of fact, I DQ'd a guy in his 50's today who had been repeatedly warned to keep his muzzle downrange while moving and after the ULSC command. So age isn't an issue when it comes to being unsafe.

The easy way out would be to say that you will never shoot that club again, but perhaps the MD was honestly too busy setting up stages by himself, trying to get people signed up and everything else that comes with being a MD.

I'd recommend you indulge those guys and have your son "checked out" at that club and all will apparently be well.

[ima45dv8]

I'd recommend you indulge those guys and have your son "checked out" at that club and all will apparently be well.

I think that's worth a try.

[kimel]

And don't forget that about Camp Shootout! (See Current Issue of Front Sight as well as lots of past issues). Alden would be more than welcome there I am sure and probably come back and starting kicking butt and taking names in a big hurry!

IMHO, if a club has to have restrictive policies on age etc. due to local range rules then they need to publicize those and be CRYSTAL CLEAR about it when discussing it.

"You need to come back for practice day" told you NOTHING about the rules.

If the MD had explained that "Sorry, the umbrella club's insurance won't let shooters under x agae compete" then you both would have taken it differently....right?

Hopefully USPSA will follow-up with the club about this. No sport, especially this one, can afford to turn away the Juniors. As my friend Bill Sahlberg (former USPSA Jr. Coordinator) is fond of saying "Juniors are our future".

[ima45dv8]

At my home clubs we do require a Junior shooter's parents to sign a waiver of liability, which may still be somewhere on the USPSA website but I can't find right now. They are then given a "new shooter's" briefing, the same as someone 50 years old, who may not have ever shot a USPSA match. Beyond that, we (the Ususal Suspects) tend to take charge. For their first few runs I personally try not to have the parents too closely involved. They're too personally invested.

By not having their Moms and Dads involved in running them through the stages until later it seems to work very well. The Junior shooter doesn't have the parentally-induced stress while shooting and seems to take constructive critisisim better from strangers (weren't we all that way at one time?). We give "Finger" and "Muzzle" calls and watch 'em like a Hawk*.

*The same level of attention is given regardless of age!

Once the new shooter has a handle of what's expected per the rules of the game it's common to have the parents coach them (up to, but not while shooting). So far we've been pretty successful in developing new shooters.

...Mark

[Stang68]

I agree that some clubs might have a minimum age, but this MD apparently just didn't want to take the time to help someone out. It's sad that alot of people have this opinion that new shooters (especially juniors) are unsafe and shouldn't be allowed on the range until they've "paid their dues" Which is complete b.s.

I completely agree with you. As a shooter at the local range where this occured, I believe that we do have a minimum age of 10. I also have RO'ed Alden in Icore and Steel Challenge stages and believe him to be a competent shooter. I believed he was wronged and is due apologies from the parties who turned him down.

Keep it up Alden and I hope to see you next weekend at the Icore match.

[Genghis]

It's a cryin' shame for any club to send a shooter home. Especially a young shooter. But even if I strongly disagree with the decision, I can see why an MD might make this call in the heat of battle. Imagine a similar scenario to illustrate the point. This is obviously NOT your situation.

New shooter shows up to USPSA match. He says all the right things and talks his way into the match. New shooter messes up and gets hurt, or worse. Then he sues the club, the MD, the RO, and USPSA.

This is not far-fetched. Think back to your first few matches, trying to remember the 180, and taking the safety off, when to reload, keeping your finger off the trigger when moving, and oh yeah, just how did I decide to shoot this stage? Our procedures protect us from as many mishaps as possible, but 100% safety is impossible in what we do. It would be exceedingly easy for a new shooter to shoot himself in the foot, for instance.

This is not about age. Shooting in USPSA matches would be a stretch for most kids, but it can be done with the proper level of seriousness and dedication. Every trained young shooter I've ever met has been all business, and superbly attentive to safety. Many shooters who start young can be world class in a short period of time. I know--some of the little so-and-sos regularly clean my clock in matches.

I've only been shooting USPSA for about 9 months, but I hold NRA Instructor and TC certifications in all civilian disciplines, including Pistol. I work on the state training team for 4-H Shooting Sports, teaching kids and training instructors.

When we teach kids how to shoot, we don't know anything about their expertise or maturity. We start out shooting from the bench. The instructors have to be able to grab the gun if it starts swinging in an unsafe direction. With rifles it takes a while to swing the muzzle around, so the instructors have more time to react. With pistols it can happen in an instant. For that reason when dealing with pistols we try to have one instructor for every one shooter. Compare the complexity and speed of what we do in USPSA, and it's obvious that an MD wants some assurance that all will be well.

The primary job of the MD and RO is safety. After that it's to take care of the shooters. This MD ABSOLUTELY should have found a way to let this shooter do what he came to do.

[John Heiter]

We typically have juniors shooting with us as young as 8 years old and we have even had some "special needs" kids shoot with us. They may require some extra attention but they can shoot USPSA matches safely and have a good time doing it. As others have said, if the host range has policies about young shooters, you may not be able to get around those but you can do a better job of explaining the limitations.

One little bit of advice for match director's from this weekend's shooting...encourage everyone to wear brimmed hats and tight collared shirts. They are safety gear as much as glasses and hearing protection are. It just so happened that it was a junior shooter but it's not easy for anyone to remember where their muzzle is pointing when a piece of hot brass bounces off a wall and into the gap between your face and your glasses.

[L9X25]

While I do not agree with the RM's decision, I understand that it not always his decision to make. My son (now 12) has been a certified Scuba Diver for over a year. Even with his certification card in hand (proof of his skill and training) we have been turned away from dive sites strictly because of his age. These situations were all the result of liability insurance requirements. As inconvenient as it may be, we now call ahead to see if the dive site (or dive operator) has age restrictions for divers. It sure beats a long disappointing drive (which we have both experienced).

Good Shooting,

Leo

[Alan550]

As in the rest of life, there are two kinds of people that we have to deal with.......those who try their best to say "yes" and find a way for something to work out, and those who take great joy in saying "no". Sounds like this RM was one of the latter.

Like others have said on here, the best revenge is success, so keep on shooting and show 'em how it's done!

Alan~^~

[BigLucky]

A Junior Revolver shooter, that is great to hear. Have fun Alden, and you will love it. Don't let that one bad day discourage you....

I have to say that it was humbling to get schooled by a 14 year old this past year at Area 4.......... so you Juniors have a definate place in our sport. We also rely on you to keep out sport moving forward....... so keep focused young padawan.......

[Carmoney]

....we have been turned away from dive sites strictly because of his age. These situations were all the result of liability insurance requirements.

Gotta watch this a little.....sometimes people who don't want kids involved in their "special little thing" blame it on their insurance because it's convenient and easier than telling you the truth. I experienced this once (fortunately only once) at a shooting range when I showed up to shoot with my daughter (then 12 years old). Turns out it was complete bullcrap, that requirement wasn't written into the insurance policy at all, the guy just figured it would be easier to blow me off with that excuse.

At my home clubs we do require a Junior shooter's parents to sign a waiver of liability, which may still be somewhere on the USPSA website but I can't find right now.

Probably a waste of time and paper. There may be local law to the contrary, but generally a parent or guardian cannot sign away a minor's legal rights, nor can the minor him/herself without court approval.

[ima45dv8]

Probably a waste of time and paper. There may be local law to the contrary, but generally a parent or guardian cannot sign away a minor's legal rights, nor can the minor him/herself without court approval.

I mostly agree. But as one of our local shooters who is an attorney said, "They're generally not worth the paper they're written on. However, if I'm going into court, I'd rather have it than not."

[MarkS_A18138]

As the Prez of our Local club I am not going to be allowing any more Jr. Shooters!!!!!!! I am tired of there behavior! (Not letting there dad's beat them anymore) I am tired of them showing off!! (Being able to hit that low port and jump backup and run at full speed without pain) I am so very tired of them not sharing there prizes with there parents! (Shea's .22 she won at the Lady's smith match this year)

Sorry for the tread drift!!!!LOL!

Now to the real thought. Write an email to the club prez and ask what there policy is for a new shooter. I then would ask if there is an age limited and if so why!

I can tell you that when I got control of our club 3 years ago we had NO JR's! Now I am the first to welcome all new shooters and make a big point to get the young one’s shooting also! We now have 8 kids ranging in age from 5 to 17 shooting with us! If a parent shows up to shoot with there kids I try squading them with my wife and I so we can help them out! I am really sorry this happened and would like to say you all are welcomed in Southern Texas to shoot with us!

Oh, Sam Carmoney your blaster is the next one in line! Oh it's going to be killer!!!!! Sorry for the wait.

Jr. Shooters ROCK!!!!

I would say women shooters Rock, but I am just so damn tired of losing EVERY week to one!

OK women shooters Rock too!!!!

[Carmoney]

Jr. Shooters ROCK!!!!

Mark, many of us who have kids shooting in this game know how much you have done to support IPSC/USPSA as a family activity! It's not the same world out there that we grew up in, and it's harder than ever for families to find true quality time together. Thanks for being such a fine example for the rest of us!

(Here's a photo of Jill shooting steel with the M-617 .22 revolver this past summer....she's a freshman in high school now and enjoys seeing the looks on the other kids' faces when she tells them about her shooting prowess!)

[MarkS_A18138]

No not another Girl shooter!!!! HELP ME I am Surrounded!!!!

[Dave Wilson]

Update:

From what I here, there has been a discussion with match director and Alden will be able to shoot in the new shooter squad next month. This month there was, as I hear it, at least one person shooting who had never even shot any type of match before, but that is a seperate issue that I am trying very hard to just let go and be glad at least he will be able to shoot. Alden didn't let thte whole thing get him down and he is still excited about shooting his first USPSA match.

This coming saturday we both will be shooting the club's ICORE match and the steel challange the next day.... Alden is going to have to take his turn at the 550-B, I figure that between two of us shooting next weekend forr two days, it'll be in the neighborhood of 800 rounds. Luckily we will both be shooting .38 special so I won't need to change the setup. Alden spent about 15 minutes sitting in a chair tonight just practicing reloads, and then got his holster on for draw and dryfire practice. Yes, kid wants to play.

More later, and hopefully better news next time.

Dave Wilson

[Clay1]

Dave, glad that things are working out for you and your son. Sometimes it is really good to shine a strong light on these types of things. Sounds like you are getting to the bottom of it.

One thing that has impressed me throughout your experience is that you kept a very positive attitude and worked toward a solution. What a nice rolemodel you have been for your son. Some people might have kicked and sputtered and cussed and not solved a thing.