MPA DS9 Hybrid

[Douglee25]

1 hour ago, donnyglock said:

They are not the same and there’s a big difference between the two. As a builder who has handled both guns the MPA is not in the same league. 

They are very similar (not identical).  We can agree to disagree. 

[Jhorizon1]

Is it part quality and looser tolerances?

Or just more of a mass produced product like a prodigy?

 

just curious I’ve never handled a mpa pistol.

[donnyglock]

57 minutes ago, Douglee25 said:

They are very similar (not identical).  We can agree to disagree. 

They are both 2011 style guns but the parts quality, fit and finish…etc is worlds better on the Atlas. Plain and simple. 

[donnyglock]

58 minutes ago, Jhorizon1 said:

Is it part quality and looser tolerances?

Or just more of a mass produced product like a prodigy?

 

just curious I’ve never handled a mpa pistol.

The parts quality, fit and finish is worlds better on the atlas. The MPA is a good entry level gun at its price point but has zero attention to detail. 

[Douglee25]

36 minutes ago, donnyglock said:

The parts quality, fit and finish is worlds better on the atlas. The MPA is a good entry level gun at its price point but has zero attention to detail. 

 

I don't know what version you've looked at, but ever since their new gunsmith took over, fit and finish is worlds above the initial batch.  Serial numbers above 600.

[donnyglock]

25 minutes ago, Douglee25 said:

 

I don't know what version you've looked at, but ever since their new gunsmith took over, fit and finish is worlds above the initial batch.  Serial numbers above 600.

I’ve seen very recent examples and my opinion hasn’t changed. They have great marketing and the price point is good. Im not saying they don’t have their place, they certainly do. All im saying is they when you say they are very similar… that’s where I disagree. I do this for a living and while the prices of the two you mentioned are far apart so is the overall quality. 

[Jhorizon1]

Any thoughts on the use of the accuracy x single lug optics plate and iron sight plate system used in ds9? It seems solid, but again I haven’t seen it.

[donnyglock]

29 minutes ago, Jhorizon1 said:

Any thoughts on the use of the accuracy x single lug optics plate and iron sight plate system used in ds9? It seems solid, but again I haven’t seen it.

It’s fine. 

[marblerocks]

@donnyglockYou've made your personal distaste for MPA known well enough. That doesn't mean you need to pop in this thread just to s#!t on them like you are.

Edited April 2, 2023 by marblerocks

[Boomstick303]

1 hour ago, marblerocks said:

That doesn't mean you need to pop in this thread just to s#!t on them like you are.

 

Not sure where @donnyglock has done that. Do you have examples?   He said he does not believe a gun at a $3-4K price point has the same build quality as a gun that has a $5-6K price point.  What is inflammatory about that?  I would tend to agree with that opinion.  That would like be suggesting Springfield Prodigy is on the same level as an MPA when clearly it is not. 

 

Time will tell if MPA makes a good gun at that price point.  There are not enough MPA 2011s on the market to make that claim.  It is a fact their original design in their 2011 venture left something to desire at that price point.  Have they fixed that?  Possibly, but it is entirely up to MPA to fix the current perception.  From the outside looking in, it seems they have, but they will need to do more over a longer period of time for the masses to believe this.

 

The reality is, it is kind of amazing that you can get into the 2011 market at various price points that fits your budget. Nothing wrong with that.  It is a good thing.  I own an Atlas Athena.  That gun is the best thing I have ever bought in my life.  Is their other 2011 builders at that quality or better?  Absolutely.   I have not handled many 2011s, but every Atlas I have touched is on point with their build quality.  The new V2 Grip is a pretty unique upgrade in the 2011 Grip module world.  My gun has never malfunctioned, and far an away my favorite blaster to shoot.  That is not to say Atlas does not have issues in some regards.  It would seem their Open guns have issues.  I would not buy their Open gun.  As far as their 9mm Minor guns go, they know what they are doing.  

 

I have considered buying an MPA and other 2011 builders like Venom Customs as a backup LO blaster  In the case of MPA I would need to be sold on their quality before I shell out the dough.  Where as other 2011 builders to not have to deal with negative past perceptions of their guns.  Especially now that MPA's LO option is $4K.  I will wait until we see how LO shapes up as a division, if it sticks around, and if I feel I need a backup 2011.  When the time comes MPA would have to blow me away in build quality for me to consider their offering at $4k. 

 

 

  

 

[marblerocks]

50 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

Not sure where @donnyglock has done that. Do you have examples?   He said he does not believe a gun at a $3-4K price point has the same build quality as a gun that has a $5-6K price point.  What is inflammatory about that?  I would tend to agree with that opinion.  That would like be suggesting Springfield Prodigy is on the same level as an MPA when clearly it is not. 

 

Time will tell if MPA makes a good gun at that price point.  There are not enough MPA 2011s on the market to make that claim.  It is a fact their original design in their 2011 venture left something to desire at that price point.  Have they fixed that?  Possibly, but it is entirely up to MPA to fix the current perception.  From the outside looking in, it seems they have, but they will need to do more over a longer period of time for the masses to believe this.

 

The reality is, it is kind of amazing that you can get into the 2011 market at various price points that fits your budget. Nothing wrong with that.  It is a good thing.  I own an Atlas Athena.  That gun is the best thing I have ever bought in my life.  Is their other 2011 builders at that quality or better?  Absolutely.   I have not handled many 2011s, but every Atlas I have touched is on point with their build quality.  The new V2 Grip is a pretty unique upgrade in the 2011 Grip module world.  My gun has never malfunctioned, and far an away my favorite blaster to shoot.  That is not to say Atlas does not have issues in some regards.  It would seem their Open guns have issues.  I would not buy their Open gun.  As far as their 9mm Minor guns go, they know what they are doing.  

 

I have considered buying an MPA and other 2011 builders like Venom Customs as a backup LO blaster  In the case of MPA I would need to be sold on their quality before I shell out the dough.  Where as other 2011 builders to not have to deal with negative past perceptions of their guns.  Especially now that MPA's LO option is $4K.  I will wait until we see how LO shapes up as a division, if it sticks around, and if I feel I need a backup 2011.  When the time comes MPA would have to blow me away in build quality for me to consider their offering at $4k. 

 

I mean let's be honest here, he hasn't been active in this thread except to criticize the quality of a product he doesn't even own. A response to @Douglee25's personal opinion doesn't necessitate what amounts to gatekeeping on current quality control of new versions of the same product. It's a tired repetition from someone who referred to their own products earlier in this same thread. That's not just a bad look on him, it's borderline intentional slight. I get the simple point about quality differences but the repetition is rather my point.

 

I would much rather own an MPA 2011, knowing that they have the ability to support their products long term with size and scale versus a small shop like Venom, Rafferty and others. We were quite speculative of MPA in the PRS market initially as well. Now their rifle chassis is the fourth most common in competition use. To your point the Limited Optic pistol is just a variation that MPA offers, the hybrid which would easily work as well can be had for $2799 on gunbroker. Having myself owned STI/Staccato, CK and Freedom Gunworks - yes it is true the "low end" of the competition market has shifted away from reasonably priced three years ago before inflation. That shouldn't surprise anyone, especially since the sticker price isn't what people are actually paying.

[Boomstick303]

You lost me when you contradicted yourself in the same post.

 

35 minutes ago, marblerocks said:

he hasn't been active in this thread except to criticize the quality of a product he doesn't even own.

 

Then say

 

35 minutes ago, marblerocks said:

I would much rather own an MPA 2011, knowing that they have the ability to support their products long term with size and scale versus a small shop like Venom, Rafferty and others

 

Have you used shops like Venom or Rafferty?  Do you own their pistols and had to work with the builder?   I am going to guess you have not, because I have yet to hear one poor word, bad experience expressed by anyone who owns their guns.  Including these builders having long phone conversations with the buyer to make sure they get it right.  So you accuse him of doing exactly what you are doing.  

 

He made a valid point.  He said MPA are not on the same quality as Atlas's.  Guns cost what they do because you get what you pay for in those builders who make the gun properly.  You don't have to agree with him, but few would agree with you.  If MPA makes a gun that is good, which has yet to be seen by the market at large, they will not be able to keep up with demand.

 

Adam from Atlas initially had a vision of creating semi custom 2011s for $4k.  Since then the demand of his product went through the roof and he could ask more for his guns.  Market demand dictates price.  This will happen with most competent 2011 builders. 

 

Good luck with your MPA since its a bit obvious you have some vested interest here.  I hope they make a gun worth the money.  I really do.  It will only help out shooters have more options with it comes to lower priced 2011s.  If they make a good product and the demand increases their prices will increase (they seem to already have gone up overnight).  It is called business.

 

[marblerocks]

6 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

You lost me when you contradicted yourself in the same post.

No, I didn't. I offered my opinion which was based on the experience of losing a "lifetime warranty" from a small builder that owned two brands which I referenced in my last reply.

 

6 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

Have you used shops like Venom or Rafferty?  Do you own their pistols and had to work with the builder?   I am going to guess you have not, because I have yet to hear one poor word, bad experience expressed by anyone who owns their guns.  Including these builders having long phone conversations with the buyer to make sure they get it right.  So you accuse him of doing exactly what you are doing.  

You expressed your opinion previously so we got it and we got it.

 

Unlike you, I was not commenting on the quality of those other shops in this thread about MPA DS9 pistols. Try to keep your responses consistent before you knee jerk respond by moving the goalposts. So no I am certainly not  criticizing Venom or Rafferty except to state by comparison that I believe simply a larger firm is more likely to stay in business and more likely to be able to provide long term warranty and support work. That opinion is based on experience from being burned by a small shop. You sit here and attempt to frame my response completely wrong yet you yourself won't bother to acknowledge that MPA has in fact repaired or tried to make previous problems right. That's even been described by real owners in this thread. I haven't heard much in terms of complaints from owners generally of MPA beyond a few incidents. But then again, word of mouth is not necessarily representative of actual quality control right.

 

6 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

He made a valid point.  He said MPA are not on the same quality as Atlas's.  Guns cost what they do because you get what you pay for in those builders who make the gun properly.  You don't have to agree with him, but few would agree with you.  If MPA makes a gun that is good, which has yet to be seen by the market at large, they will not be able to keep up with demand.

That certainly is not the only thing he said, don't be obstinate. My point was rather simple, you don't have to agree with me either. But in the end it certainly comes off as on an ongoing repetitive criticism that isn't necessarily fair or balanced.

 

6 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

Adam from Atlas initially had a vision of creating semi custom 2011s for $4k.  Since then the demand of his product went through the roof and he could ask more for his guns.  Market demand dictates price.  This will happen with most competent 2011 builders. 
 

Cool? I remember when Atlas was started as well. The initial premise was fast delivery as well if you recall.

6 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

Good luck with your MPA since its a bit obvious you have some vested interest here.  I hope they make a gun worth the money.  I really do.  It will only help out shooters have more options with it comes to lower priced 2011s.  If they make a good product and the demand increases their prices will increase (they seem to already have gone up overnight).  It is called business.

 

I don't own an MPA. But your knee jerk response is a bit telling. You can reply with another wall of presumptions and misconstrued arguments if you want it doesn't really change anything that I said previously.

[Nathanb]

Donny has always been a. Consummate professional for me.  He’s honest maybe to a fault but he’s not said anything about the gun being a piece of garbage he’s just pointed out some things he’s acutely aware of as a hand builder of high end 2011s. He may have an extremely high sense of quality too which is what makes him so good as a builder.  What you think is a nit to pick is something that he won’t let stand in his work. 

[Sarge]

14 hours ago, marblerocks said:

No, I didn't. I offered my opinion which was based on the experience of losing a "lifetime warranty" from a small builder that owned two brands which I referenced in my last reply.

 

You expressed your opinion previously so we got it and we got it.

 

Unlike you, I was not commenting on the quality of those other shops in this thread about MPA DS9 pistols. Try to keep your responses consistent before you knee jerk respond by moving the goalposts. So no I am certainly not  criticizing Venom or Rafferty except to state by comparison that I believe simply a larger firm is more likely to stay in business and more likely to be able to provide long term warranty and support work. That opinion is based on experience from being burned by a small shop. You sit here and attempt to frame my response completely wrong yet you yourself won't bother to acknowledge that MPA has in fact repaired or tried to make previous problems right. That's even been described by real owners in this thread. I haven't heard much in terms of complaints from owners generally of MPA beyond a few incidents. But then again, word of mouth is not necessarily representative of actual quality control right.

 

That certainly is not the only thing he said, don't be obstinate. My point was rather simple, you don't have to agree with me either. But in the end it certainly comes off as on an ongoing repetitive criticism that isn't necessarily fair or balanced.

 

Cool? I remember when Atlas was started as well. The initial premise was fast delivery as well if you recall.

I don't own an MPA. But your knee jerk response is a bit telling. You can reply with another wall of presumptions and misconstrued arguments if you want it doesn't really change anything that I said previously.

One would swear you sound like the owner of MPA….. Or a paid spokesperson. Either way your comments would almost turn me off from buying one.

[marblerocks]

4 hours ago, Sarge said:

One would swear you sound like the owner of MPA….. Or a paid spokesperson. Either way your comments would almost turn me off from buying one.

I am neither. It is kind've s#!tty to assume or imply I am either of those things really. I can also tell you for certain I am not another brand taking the time to repeatedly come in and criticize another brand. That's the kind of behavior I expect from people trying to undercut business in the same type of market. But okay sure I am the big bad guy for calling that out. I do, however, get tired of hearing the typical competitive gun drama and bandwagoning that happens with small hobbies.

 

It's pretty obvious that Don owns Venom Customs and has been coming in to criticize his competitors work without even owning their products. That doesn't feel like an obvious conflict of interest to you?

Edited April 3, 2023 by marblerocks

[GrumpyOne]

Alright, alright. Anymore back and forth and it may get locked.

[donnyglock]

23 minutes ago, marblerocks said:

I am neither. It is kind've s#!tty to assume or imply I am either of those things really. I can also tell you for certain I am not another brand taking the time to repeatedly come in and criticize another brand. That's the kind of behavior I expect from people trying to undercut business in the same type of market. But okay sure I am the big bad guy for calling that out. I do, however, get tired of hearing the typical competitive gun drama and bandwagoning that happens with small hobbies.

 

It's pretty obvious that Don owns Venom Customs and has been coming in to criticize his competitors work without even owning their products. That doesn't feel like an obvious conflict of interest to you?

It’s not a conflict of interest. I am not a competitor of MPA. My guns cost twice as much. I was just stating facts. 
 While I obviously don’t own one I’ve had many in my shop. 
I’ve had many Atlas guns as well. My point was that MPA is not in the same ballpark as Atlas. It was in response to another’s comments that they were. They’re not and I’ll stand by that. They are a more price point option and it shows. I’m backed up many months in advance so “trying to take” their customers isn’t a reality. I’m plenty busy and there is enough of the pie to go around. MPA has a long way to go before they reach that “world class firearms” slogan they market. Their riffle stuff is EXCELLENT!!! The pistols aren’t there yet. That’s all I’m saying. Sorry if that hurt your feelings. 

[Boomstick303]

Interesting I was not the only one.  

[lroy]

I would have to imagine the popularity of staccato is proof that there is a strong demand for a more entry/mid price 2011s. 

[Boomstick303]

Like I said before more 2011 builders at different price points helps everyone.  It is obvious you will get what you can afford.  Thats a win for the market as a whole.  

 

 

 

 

[mrvip27]

On 3/29/2023 at 6:34 AM, donnyglock said:

The parts quality, fit and finish is worlds better on the atlas. The MPA is a good entry level gun at its price point but has zero attention to detail. 

 

@marblerocks its right here...in bold. You get what you pay for and there is a market for everyone's budget. Don has made that clear.

[donnyglock]

38 minutes ago, lroy said:

I would have to imagine the popularity of staccato is proof that there is a strong demand for a more entry/mid price 2011s. 

Always room. It’s a great way to get into the platform. 

[marblerocks]

On 4/3/2023 at 5:22 PM, donnyglock said:

It’s not a conflict of interest. I am not a competitor of MPA. That’s all I’m saying. Sorry if that hurt your feelings. 

I simply pointed out the quiet part out loud, I have no real stake. If anything I'm still salty about CK/Freedom going under but that's another story altogether. I get that upsetti spaghetti users.

[Dat_Dude]

I was in the market for a full size competition 2011 style pistol for IDPA, at the time I was using my carry gun (Staccato C2). I shoot the Staccato XC in USPSA so I leaning towards the Atlas Athena until I started seeing favorable reviews of the MPA DS9 and and fell for it once I saw the price was $2k less than the Athena. Well, here's a timeline of the issues I've had with the DS9:

 

1. Received the Pistol on 12Dec22
2. 05Jan23 Upgraded the trigger and sear spring with an Atlas Gunworks flat trigger and EGW sear spring. The original trigger was extremely sloppy just like Sage Dynamics review.
3. 20Jan23 Shot the Florida State IDPA match with intermittent return to battery issues.
4. 13Feb23 Ordered an Atlas Athena
5. 16Feb23 Replaced the slide stop with an OEM Staccato unit from Dawson Precision. The original was extremely tight and required significant effort (20-30 mins) to remove.
6. 26Feb23 Shot the CPC Winter Classic with persistent return to battery issues.
7. 13Mar23 Returned the pistol to MPA for repairs citing the following:
   1. Out of battery issues
   2. Slide stop fitment
   3. Engagement of the thumb safety with the hammer in the up position (1/4 cock per MPA)
8. 31Mar23 Received the pistol back from MPA with a write  up of the repairs. The gun still has minor issues chambering 147gr but 124gr run fine. I sent MPA a follow up email that included a short video comparing the function of the DS9 with my C2 and XC to demonstrate that neither of those pistols allow the thumb safety to be engaged in up/quarter cock position but the DS9 does. I’m not aware of any 1911/2011 that functions this way but according to MPA that’s an unfair comparison.  I requested a refund but they declined my request stating that the gun operated safely, I asked them repeatedly if every gun that left the factory operated this way but they never gave me a straight answer.                                                    

 

I’m going to use it at the Tennessee State match this weekend and then drop it off at a local 1911 builder to go over the gun and assess the thumb safety issue. My Athena is currently on step 6 on their tracker so I'll have it for the next major match. 

 

Buy once cry once.