Scheel roller delayed buffer

[Dirty_J]

We’ll. Yeah. That can do it too.  

[dmshozer1]

On 1/5/2023 at 10:42 AM, brian45acp said:

We are describing the same thing differently. Mine rolls but feels choppy like you describe as well. 

 

Corey did reply and said this is fine and has no effect on how it functions but if there was ever an issue he would take care of it. 

 

 

Now that you have had the Scheel for awhile,

What do you think of it compared to your JP set up?

[brian45acp]

21 hours ago, dmshozer1 said:

Now that you have had the Scheel for awhile,

What do you think of it compared to your JP set up?

I dont have the JP5 and havent run the Scheel yet. I have the GMR13 and about 70k rounds in that rifle by now. I will run the Scheel this Friday to function check then again in Saturdays match. 

 

I also ordered some wave springs to experiment with. Like the old days where Max and others would drop it in the buffer tube first so the buffer softly bottoms out. If that works out it will give me a soft short stroke with less recoil and likely help return the bolt faster for quicker splits. I will report back here how it goes this weekend. 

Edited January 10, 2023 by brian45acp

[ysrracer]

9 minutes ago, brian45acp said:

I. 

 

I also ordered some wave springs to experiment with. Like the old days where Max and others would drop it in the buffer tube first so the buffer softly bottoms out. . 

 

What are wave springs? Do you have a link?

[Dirty_J]

1 hour ago, brian45acp said:

I dont have the JP5 and havent run the Scheel yet. I have the GMR13 and about 70k rounds in that rifle by now. I will run the Scheel this Friday to function check then again in Saturdays match. 

 

I also ordered some wave springs to experiment with. Like the old days where Max and others would drop it in the buffer tube first so the buffer softly bottoms out. If that works out it will give me a soft short stroke with less recoil and likely help return the bolt faster for quicker splits. I will report back here how it goes this weekend. 

That just sounds like a Kynshot 5020ss with extra steps.  

[brian45acp]

9 hours ago, Dirty_J said:

That just sounds like a Kynshot 5020ss with extra steps.  

Maybe, but the roller lock seems legit and of great use to lock the bolt up initially. If now the issue is the buffer bottoming out in the tube I can fix that with slowing down and adding some cushion to bring the buffer to stop softly and also return it quicker because of the spring. So the nice light blue 5lb spring Corey sent sends the bolt forward softly and the wave spring softly stops the buffer. In my mind this is going to work out great but I have to run it still and see. 

 

A wave spring is a 1 inch diameter and 1 inch tall compression spring that a lot of guys used to play with for blow back pcc. I will run it friday and report back here with pics and links if it works out. It looks like a slinky basically but is decompressed like a stretched out slinky. They arrived today so I have them in hand and will see how this goes.

 

Previously I could not attach pics because the file is too large. Any clue how to post pics here?

[Dirty_J]

Nah. I was talking about all that wave spring stuff with the JP SCS. 

 

The Scheel RDB is legit. Been shooting it since July in my Davinci PCC. My only concern with the Scheel from day1 was the durability… and the Gen2 seems to address most of my concerns (which so far have been completely unfounded - zero issues with it so far). 

[Dirty_J]

If the Scheel RDB is bottoming out in the tube… you need more spring for the rollers. They should be absorbing the brunt of the force. 

[brian45acp]

3 minutes ago, Dirty_J said:

If the Scheel RDB is bottoming out in the tube… you need more spring for the rollers. They should be absorbing the brunt of the force. 

I get the concept of that but doesnt the buffer still bottom out in the tube?  If it does then I would like to soften that feel up a bit so I got these springs to play with. 

 

The JP SCS is reliable as hell so if this Scheel dont hold up then its back to that. The new one I just got Get 2 looks well made though. Bearings arent so free spinning like I would consider a bearing to be but once installed it seems to roll just fine. I marked it with a sharpie to watch it and see for sure and its fine. In the hand they turn but not like spinning a bike wheel and one feels a bit like another user described which was a radio dial that has felt bumps to tune into a station. 

 

All that aside its a damn genius idea and I would honestly rather keep the simplicity of blow back and use this Scheel to roller lock vs a JP5. I watched JP video on the parts in that thing and out the window with simplicity for sure. It has so many parts in there I think long term its not as reliable as the blow back JPs.

[Dirty_J]

A properly setup Scheel system does not need wave springs. It does not violently bottom out. You’re just adding complexity and failure points.

[ysrracer]

Anybody got a link to a wave spring? I have no idea what you guys are talking about.

[Dirty_J]

Just now, ysrracer said:

Anybody got a link to a wave spring? I have no idea what you guys are talking about.

Not worth messing with anymore. Their usage was “pre-Scheel” and “pre-Kynshot”. 

[brian45acp]

7 minutes ago, Dirty_J said:

Not worth messing with anymore. Their usage was “pre-Scheel” and “pre-Kynshot”. 

Most likely you are right. When I hit the range I just wanted to have all options in hand to test. I have Coreys short stroke kit also to try. In hand the 12 lb spring feels really light and the 18lb feels good. I got 24,18, and 12 lb springs just for fun. Maybe not necessary but nothing complex about it. Sort of a soft stopping point for the buffer is all it is. I also like that it short strokes the system with out being an actual hard plastic stop. I also still can lock the bolt back to where with the JP SCS I couldn't do that. So if this allows me to short stroke the Scheel but without doing so using hard plastic bumpers I would call that a benefit. 

 

Most have said the short stroke is too violent in this system so maybe this will be a way to achieve that but a bit better. Maybe I just like to screw with crap and dont need to lol. 

 

https://www.mcmaster.com/catalog/128/1443/1561T63

Edited January 11, 2023 by brian45acp

[Seanzky]

I just came home from shooting around 200 rounds to start the "break in" process of my RDBS. I thought I brought more ammo with me, but unfortunately that was all I had in my bag. With these 135pf reloads, in the first 50 or so, the dot jumped quite a bit --either straight up or up and a little to the right. It was easy to track and it was noticeably better than my stock set up.

 

So, because I'm impatient, I decided to add another stiff spring (1- stiff, 2- stiff, 3- soft) just to see if there would be any improvements. I couldn't believe it, but the dot was tracking pretty much perfectly. At 7 yards, the dot would go up and slightly right maybe an inch on my paper target. I really couldn't believe this system could make that much of a difference over my stock set up. I mean, I had a feeling it would help some, but not to this extent. Of course, I've read several testimonies of the Gen 1, but recoil, dot bounce, etc. being subjective, I thought either other users exaggerated or maybe their tolerance for dot movement was higher than mine.

 

To me, this makes the dot movement pretty much similar or slightly better than an open gun. I'm going to run my 124pf reloads this Saturday so I'll be running it with just one stiff spring (1- stiff, 2- soft, 3- empty) and see how that goes. Also, racking the charging handle is easy. As someone mentioned here, I can pull it with one finger (even my left hand pinky) whether the hammer is back or not. I can see in both windows the bearing is starting to wear ever so slightly on the buffer tube (same shape as the bearing).

 

I'm very pleased with this purchase. I look forward to it wearing in some more and getting to do more tests with different loads and spring combinations.

Edited January 13, 2023 by Seanzky

[ChuckS]

On 1/10/2023 at 5:48 PM, ysrracer said:

Anybody got a link to a wave spring? I have no idea what you guys are talking about.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0085ZOZFI/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_tai_V4PYAbQD5RE2X

 

ETA: I used one in the pre-Blitzkrieg period. I used them up until I took the buffer out of the tube and found spring fragments all over the back of the tube. I never noticed it missing so that was that...

 

[ysrracer]

1 hour ago, ChuckS said:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0085ZOZFI/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_tai_V4PYAbQD5RE2X

 

ETA: I used one in the pre-Blitzkrieg period. I used them up until I took the buffer out of the tube and found spring fragments all over the back of the tube. I never noticed it missing so that was that...

 

 

Thanks, never seen that before.

[Dirty_J]

26 minutes ago, ysrracer said:

 

Thanks, never seen that before.

It basically does what a hydraulic buffer does today. Used to be all the rage with the JP SCS back in the day. The variable spring weights on that “2nd stage” could be tweaked to your load. 
 

Now. It’s available fully contained from Kynshot and used fluid/piston instead of a spring. Less need for tuning.. the fluid just compressed and increases the resistance when more force is applied. 
 

 

[dmshozer1]

13 hours ago, Seanzky said:

I just came home from shooting around 200 rounds to start the "break in" process of my RDBS. I thought I brought more ammo with me, but unfortunately that was all I had in my bag. With these 135pf reloads, in the first 50 or so, the dot jumped quite a bit --either straight up or up and a little to the right. It was easy to track and it was noticeably better than my stock set up.

 

So, because I'm impatient, I decided to add another stiff spring (1- stiff, 2- stiff, 3- soft) just to see if there would be any improvements. I couldn't believe it, but the dot was tracking pretty much perfectly. At 7 yards, the dot would go up and slightly right maybe an inch on my paper target. I really couldn't believe this system could make that much of a difference over my stock set up. I mean, I had a feeling it would help some, but not to this extent. Of course, I've read several testimonies of the Gen 1, but recoil, dot bounce, etc. being subjective, I thought either other users exaggerated or maybe their tolerance for dot movement was higher than mine.

 

To me, this makes the dot movement pretty much similar or slightly better than an open gun. I'm going to run my 124pf reloads this Saturday so I'll be running it with just one stiff spring (1- stiff, 2- soft, 3- empty) and see how that goes. Also, racking the charging handle is easy. As someone mentioned here, I can pull it with one finger (even my left hand pinky) whether the hammer is back or not. I can see in both windows the bearing is starting to wear ever so slightly on the buffer tube (same shape as the bearing).

 

I'm very pleased with this purchase. I look forward to it wearing in some more and getting to do more tests with different loads and spring combinations.

 

[dmshozer1]

Just now, dmshozer1 said:

 

I think 7 yds. is to close to judge dot movement,

Get back to 25 yds. and you will really see what your dot is doing.

[Dirty_J]

10 minutes ago, dmshozer1 said:

I think 7 yds. is to close to judge dot movement,

Get back to 25 yds. and you will really see what your dot is doing.

Agreed. Minimum of 15yds to test dot movement. But further is better. 

[Seanzky]

I tested at 15 yards, too, and I'm also zeroed at 15 yards. I wanted to combine test, break in and some double tap practice while I was at it, which is the reason for having the paper targets at 7 yards. The local match tomorrow will have targets that are probably going to be closer than 15 yards and the range only allowed 5, 7, 15, 20, 25 yards. I didn't bother to test 20 and 25 for that reason.

[brian45acp]

Got to shoot mine today and am not blown away. I will say that my wave spring idea felt a lot better than without it. The issue I had is the quarter bent lol. It must really be slamming back there and my loads are not hot. I ditched the wave spring and had the best feel with 2 heavy springs in position 1 and 2. But the wave spring is definitely worth playing with. 

 

I swapped to my JP SCS with 4 tungsten and 1 stainless with the lightest spring then shot one steel target in pairs. Then put the Scheel in and did the same on another identical steel target. The JP setup had slightly better grouping and the results were so close I am not going to venture into something new. So I will stick with JP and be selling the Scheel. I would say the Scheel is a much easier approach to just put it in and be done than what it took for me to finally tune the JP SCS just right. 

[CClassForLife]

Just tested with 115 gr Supervel and tried various spring positions. The recoil felt more violent than a blitzkrieg hydraulic buffer/blue sprinco combination. This was with a JP bolt.

 

My first thought was "huh, that actually hits pretty hard." It's a clever design, but I'm skeptical of its performance. I was also testing a short stroked KP-9 and that definitely felt better than the Scheel Buffer. I'll shoot a steel challenge match tomorrow and see if there's any performance difference.

[Dirty_J]

5 minutes ago, CClassForLife said:

Just tested with 115 gr Supervel and tried various spring positions. The recoil felt more violent than a blitzkrieg hydraulic buffer/blue sprinco combination. This was with a JP bolt.

 

My first thought was "huh, that actually hits pretty hard." It's a clever design, but I'm skeptical of its performance. I was also testing a short stroked KP-9 and that definitely felt better than the Scheel Buffer. I'll shoot a steel challenge match tomorrow and see if there's any performance difference.

SuperVel 115’s are pushing close to 150PF in a 14.5/16” PCC. I’ve shot this ammo with the Scheel with heavy springs in all 3 positions. It’s got some violent dot movement, but returned to POA nicely for me. The SuperVel is not ammo I’d use on a regular basis in a PCC. Or maybe try their 147’s… that’s what max is shooting in his JP5.
 

If that’s the ammo you’re planning to run… I’d probably ditch the 5# blue spring that comes with the Scheel for a 308 carbine spring and try it again. It just doesn’t have enough main spring force to overcome ammo that’s nearing major PF. 

 

The blitz with a 308 spring is certainly going to work better with that ammo, than the Scheel out of the box. 
 

[Seanzky]

Finished a match today and my PSA with the Scheel RDBS did phenomenally. I was finishing out my 120pf ammo, though, so it wasn't a real test. However, compared to stock buffer and spring, it felt much better. Now that it's fully broken in, next time I'll be shooting it with my 135pf ammo. It's very obvious now that any further improvement is on the operator and not the equipment.