2021 Locap Nats, what did you think?

[Dazhi]

People don't care about popper f*#k until they get f*#ked. 

It will happen, regardless of your PF.  I got f*#ked twice in my first major USPSA match, and both times the mags on the ground got picked up by RM and chronoed to be 131PF.  Then a limited major shooter in my squad got f*#ked after me.

I have not been popper f*#ked again since then, but I know one day, it will happen again.  I just hope when it does, nothing important is on the line, and I can just laugh it off and blame the shooting god. 

[motosapiens]

8 hours ago, rowdyb said:

And people at the match were asking me if I was going to stay and then were incredulous when I said "no way!" emphatically.  How many people who weren't in the top ten of a division who went wish they had that time back?

i stayed. I had a good time... but I brought beer.

[motosapiens]

7 hours ago, RJH said:

On the match itself, I didn't attend but did watch some videos.  Looked good overall, but I would have liked to see more move and shoot stages vs run here and shoot, then run here and shoot stages.    

 

i think that has more to do with divisions than stages. shooting CO or limited on those stages, I definitely would have shot more stuff moving. If I have to reload on the way, and I have zero make-up shots (ss major), then yeah, I'm probably going to play it a little safer. At any rate, shooting into and out of positions is still shooting on the move, and the better you are at it the faster your time will be.

[motosapiens]

23 minutes ago, Dazhi said:

People don't care about popper f*#k until they get f*#ked. 

 

i've never been popper f**ed, but I still care when it happens to others, and I try to make darn sure it never happens on a stage where I'm working.... However JJ's situation wasn't a popper-f**ck. He gambled and lost. I'm genuinely surprised he ran such light ammo. I chrono my ammo before I go to any major match, and I would pretty nervous with those chrono results, both about chrono, and about not having enough power for low hits to be successful.

[motosapiens]

6 hours ago, Bagellord said:

 

I was really shocked at the way it was laid out for the 8 round guns on some of the stages. They were legal, but some of us had to do some funky things.

this is true, and I whined like a little b*tch about it a few times (in jest), but in the end the first minor shooters in ss were out of the top 20. horizontal partials and plenty of movers and open targets beyond 10 yards means it's hard to avoid charlies without going too slow.

[Conner]

I liked the match in general. The stages seemed a little “easier” / less technical than the other times I’ve gone (2019 and 2020, both in Frostproof). I didn’t personally see or hear about any scoring problems due to RO incompetence like last year. I didn’t personally have any popper issues, although I agree the rules for them should be fixed. Every popper fell for me on the first hit (148gr bullets at 134.7 PF according to the match’s chrono). 
 

The awards ceremony was very unprofessional. I’d be embarrassed if I were them. They held it on the club house patio, and not only was there no where near enough seating/tables, it also started pouring partway through. I think less than half the people there got food. My small group waited in line only for them to run out. I think they didn’t order enough, and also didn’t have anyone serving the food, so people took way more than they probably should have. The prize table situation was also a mess. Just a huge swarm of people standing in the clubhouse hallway. Eventually it seemed to work out, but it was completely disorganized. The whole thing felt like they forgot about the awards ceremony until Sunday morning and then just threw it together last minute. 
 

The matchbook having many changes was also a little annoying. To add to it, they didn’t have WSBs posted on the stages on Thursday, so it was a little bit of a guessing game when walking them. Not a huge deal but just adds to the overall amateur feeling of the event. On top of being inaccurate, the matchbook looked like someone at HQ had their kid put it together for them. About middle-school project level of quality. 
 

Any of these things by themselves wouldn’t be a huge deal. But all of them together really reinforce the fact that USPSA is focused on increasing revenue rather than providing value to the membership. All the shooting related stuff was enjoyable, but the rest of the event was amateur hour. 

[Chills1994]

47 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

I think the term 'popper-f**ed' is a little over-used. IMHO, if you chrono at 126 and hit poppers low at a big match on a breezy day and they go down for the RM but not you, the system is working as intended. The way the rules are written there is a clear incentive to run a little hotter ammo, which is why most people do so. If you choose not to do so and just hope for the best, you are taking a chance. More power tilts the odds in your favor.

I was shooting .40 in production downloaded to a 135ish plus power factor at that time.  These were 180 grain Berry’s plated bullets.

 

I might have actually taken a screen shot from the hatcam video showing at least 5 good hits in the circular calibration zone.  There is a slim possibility that I might still have that screen shot saved to my photobucket.  This was on a field course type stage where there were two lines of full sized poppers lined up one behind the other.  One line was to the far right of the bay.  The other line was to the far left of the bay. So you couldn’t shoot and hit the next popper until the one in front of it falls.  IMO, that’s horrible stage design and is begging to have bullets bounce over the back berm.

 

My ammo, all of it that was shot over the chrono, actually passed the chrono.

[B_RAD]

27 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

i've never been popper f**ed, but I still care when it happens to others, and I try to make darn sure it never happens on a stage where I'm working.... However JJ's situation wasn't a popper-f**ck. He gambled and lost. I'm genuinely surprised he ran such light ammo. I chrono my ammo before I go to any major match, and I would pretty nervous with those chrono results, both about chrono, and about not having enough power for low hits to be successful.

He got screwed over! Poppers are supposed to fall.  His ammo made PF. Yes, some went sub minor and yes that one round that hit the popper could have been another one of those but, he wasn't the only one that got screwed on that popper. A friend of mine had to call for calibration on that one too. His ammo wasn't so close to the floor and when they calibrated it, it didn't fall. So, why would JJ's almost too "light" ammo hit it harder than someone else's ammo that's hotter? See what I mean?  Not trying to argue. Just saying. That popper was an issue for several shooters it seems. Red flag. 

 

Not only that, now people are talking, speculating about this. Which takes away from Nils' win and amazing match!  Not cool!

 

The entire situation should not happen. I'll admit, it doesn't happen near as much as it's made out to but it does and it shouldn't. 

 

 

Edited May 11, 2021 by B_RAD

[Chills1994]

Since the screen shot of J.J.’s chrono results were posted, I have to ask, are the chrono results of the RM’s gun/ammo used to calibrate the poppers posted anywhere?

 

Also, if my memory is correct, EGW used to be the one and only manufacturer of the official box that Production division guns had to fit in.

 

Hang with me here for a second as I try to bring this analogy full circle....

 

It used to be that the rulebook’s appendix had the dimensions for full size 42” pepper poppers with a + or - tolerance.

 

ASSuming that AR500 plate from different manufacturers has different weight/density, has there ever been just one manufacturer of pepper popper declared as THEEEE official pepper popper manufacturer for nationals?

 

Has a + or - tolerance for the weight of the full size pepper popper plate ever been published? 
 

I mean... if USPSA rules dictate that pepper poppers are going to be used as a tool or instrument to “recognize” power factor, shouldn’t such an instrument be more standardized?

[MikeyScuba]

Was it possible that with any big match the range runs out of all the decent steel and has to scrounge at the back of the shed?  We’ve got such a pile at my club all chained up.  I’ve never seen it move in 5yrs.  
 

IPSC Ontario has a program to help clubs upgrade steel.  Maybe USPSA should work with the host club and cover some of the costs to upgrade steel before majors?

[motosapiens]

52 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

He got screwed over! Poppers are supposed to fall.  His ammo made PF. Yes, some went sub minor and yes that one round that hit the popper could have been another one of those but, he wasn't the only one that got screwed on that popper. A friend of mine had to call for calibration on that one too. His ammo wasn't so close to the floor and when they calibrated it, it didn't fall. S

 

 

 

so it was getting routinely readjusted, and yet people with light ammo still had problems? Hmmm.

 

Personally, I like both Nils and JJ. They have always been extremely professional, courteous, helpful, etc.... Very glad for both of them. If this had been a real popper-f*ck, I would feel bad for JJ, but since it isn't, I don't. I mean I empathize with his disappointment at giving it his best and coming up slightly short, but I don't think he got screwed over.

 

This is a really good learning experience for everyone. This is why you don't shoot 125.5PF ammo at a big match. If everything is perfect, it *should* be enough, but on a windy day, with human beings manning the controls, everything will not be perfect. The fact that it went down for subminor chrono ammo means something. It could have just been an unlucky gust of wind that held it up..... but that's one reason so many people load to 130+ pf, and if they *see* that a popper is going over slowly, they aim a little higher.

 

I don't think Nils' win is tainted in the slightest, since they shot on the same squad in the same conditions with the same RO's.  Congrats to both shooters.

Edited May 11, 2021 by motosapiens

[motosapiens]

48 minutes ago, Chills1994 said:

I mean... if USPSA rules dictate that pepper poppers are going to be used as a tool or instrument to “recognize” power factor, shouldn’t such an instrument be more standardized?

 

why? they go down with hit with subminor ammo before the match starts. If you leave one standing and it doesn't go down with subminor ammo during the match, you get a reshoot..... I think the system works.

[B_RAD]

Ok

Edited May 11, 2021 by B_RAD

[outerlimits]

1 hour ago, Conner said:

 

Any of these things by themselves wouldn’t be a huge deal. But all of them together really reinforce the fact that USPSA is focused on increasing revenue rather than providing value to the membership. All the shooting related stuff was enjoyable, but the rest of the event was amateur hour. 

^^^This.  sounds like nationals barely level 2 these days.  remember this when you vote next time.

[Chills1994]

45 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 11, 2021 by Chills1994
Deleted. I’m not awake yet

[rowdyb]

Something I had pounded into me in other athletic endeavors, even at a national level of amateur competition like we have here, "Never leave it to the judges."

 

Every make up shot I took in the match was needed and every popper I shot fell with one shot. (Sometimes with a miss first though)

 

I don't believe in popper screwing. To me it is just part of our competition environment. It is a variable the match tries to manage but in the end I am the one who shoots it. And I have lost popper calibration at US IPSC Nats. I've won it at Area 3. And for those advocating plates, think back to the REF debacle with plates at Area 4 a few years ago.....

 

One year at Double Tap, a match at one time infamous for popper screwing, they said, "If you hit the popper and it doesn't fall you go to chrono immediately with the ammo on you. If you pass power factor with the ammo you were shooting in that moment, you get a re shoot." At the time it raised a lot of eyebrows as it is a procedure clearly not in the rule book. But now it might make sense.

 

I also could get behind a truly standardized popper. The items themselves and the ground they are on are sooooo highly variable.

 

And to agree, I enjoyed shooting and had my best Prod nats results ever. But many of the things that weren't 'me behind the gun' were not representative of a national event from a sport with 30,000 plus members and a larger world wide organization.

[Chills1994]

My point above that I was trying to make was that if some “instrument” is being used for measurement or calibration, then like that micrometer sticker saying it checks good or is within specs, the RM’s gun/ammo chrono results also need to be posted/published.

 

But my previous comment still stands about the conditions changing between the time the RM calibrates the popper and the time some shooter shoots it 3 hours later.

[motosapiens]

1 minute ago, Chills1994 said:

 

But my previous comment still stands about the conditions changing between the time the RM calibrates the popper and the time some shooter shoots it 3 hours later.

 

but the RM knocked the popper over immediately after the shooter didn't......  who knows how light jj's round was? what we do know is that some of his ammo was definitely and provably sub-minor.

[BritinUSA]

The popper is not in the same state it was in before the competitor shot it. It moved when it was hit, so it was hit twice before it fell. 

 

[motosapiens]

8 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

And to agree, I enjoyed shooting and had my best Prod nats results ever. But many of the things that weren't 'me behind the gun' were not representative of a national event from a sport with 30,000 plus members and a larger world wide organization.

 

I heard alot of comments from shooters about how smooth things were running, and how well-organized and professional the RO's were. Obviously I didn't experience this match as a consumer, but my experience at frostproof last fall as a consumer was the best-officiated match I have ever been to. for sure, I think they could have used a couple more porta-potties, and a little more food at the banquet, since I was one of those that waited  until the end of the line when all they had were sammiches with mayonnaise (which I can't eat), but that's what I get for drinking beer and bs-ing with other shooters for too long.  I did hang out and help on a couple of the double-stage bays after our fairly quick and easy stage was wrapped up, and and least those RO's that I observed were very professional and courteous and efficient.

 

I would recommend to anyone that has substantive constructive criticism on the match to send it to mike, troy, and jake. You can post stuff here too, and it's interesting discussion, but email it straight to them. I send them an after-action-report after every match I work, calling out the good things and the shortcomings in a respectful way. That's how things get better.

[motosapiens]

5 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

The popper is not in the same state it was in before the competitor shot it. It moved when it was hit, so it was hit twice before it fell. 

 

Unless there is something mechanically defective about the popper  (which does actually happen occasionally, and I have observed it on 2 separate occasions at area matches, and it's infuriating), that doesn't actually make a difference. Did anyone else on the supersquad leave it standing? or have to take multiple shots?

[motosapiens]

23 hours ago, Twinkie said:

I thought the match was very good for Single Stack, and a bit less for Production/L10 due to the stage construction. I shot SS major and several times wished I had two more rounds in the gun due to a different plan I could have run or more often due to poor shooting skill leading to a make up shot. 

 

I very much enjoyed the IPSC-style carnival stages as I feel this match is aimed at preparing competitors for the World Shoot where there will be lots of short stages with challenging targets or activator sequences. 

 

From a match official perspective, I didn't like having no paper backup to start, then having to go to them on day two. We should have had them from the start. Toilet facilities were an issue, as was lunch. It was late and honestly pretty poor quality. 

 

I liked the smaller squads and the late start each day (due to AL law). I didn't like AT ALL the way there were stages with multiple movers in a double bay and the squad was split for those bays. It led to staff resetting and backed up the match. Next time just put two whole squads there and stop this split squad stuff. That works for simple stages with no reset other than pasting and/or full staff reset.

 

I liked the vendor zone but wish CMP would expand the Action range so we can have a permanent bathroom facility, pavilion for eating, and a vendor area like at Universal. 

 

Overall it wasn't the best Nationals ever for me, but it was the best major I've been to at CMP. Hopefully things that were done right at this match continue to happen and we can improve the things which were sub-par.

 

One last thing: Large poppers are awesome and anyone who doesn't think so must have shot minor.

 

These seem like reasonable comments to me. I hope you sent them to jake and troy. I too would like to see fewer 2-stage bays, especially with movers. I would really like to see CMP put in 3 more bays.

 

For the benefit of others who weren't there, I will provide a little background on the paper-backup thing, even tho I was not heavily involved. At the start of the match, we were getting emails with our scores immediately upon hitting the approve button. this was one of the things we were asked to focus on and double-check during the staff match to make sure it was working. Apparently friday night apple released an update that caused some instability in practiscore, and the pads that were connected to the internet and had auto-update enabled had crashing problems saturday morning. My stage fortunately was not affected by it, but it is indeed a very scary thing. I was pretty impressed by how quickly and effectively the stats gurus responded to the issue, but perhaps RO's working with the problem ipads have a different opinion. Ultimately, I think it shows that we probably just need to include a procedure to efficiently do paper backups, to just be prepared for any eventuality. We had enough staff on our stage that it didn't cause any slowdown.

[Chills1994]

Are these poppers at a Nationals level match reset by fellow competitors, the CRO and RO, or some disinterested third party like Boy Scouts trying to get their Rifle and Shotgun merit badge?

 

How are these poppers secured to the ground?

 

with just stakes?

 

or with large lag screws/landscape timber screws?

[rowdyb]

On 5/10/2021 at 7:11 PM, rowdyb said:

The ROs seemed happier

@motosapiens this was one of the very first things about the match I wrote. I heard more laughter at this match from both staff and competitors than I have in a long time.

 

When I've been to national and world events for BJJ you knew you were at an event of such a level in comparison to other events. I'm trying to think of other pro/am things I've been involved with for other good examples. Maybe rock climbing competitions. What happens at my local climbing gym pales compared to pinnacle (pun intended) national events. The same for some of the pro and amateur mixed things in cycling. Or chess. There was nothing to differentiate this match from a nice Area match for me as a competitor, and obviously I'm not the only one to feel it.

 

I still would give an overall positive rating of the match. Indeed the only thing I'd really put my foot down on was the bathrooms, and that is again self serving as I have a digestive system disease and bathroom access is critical to my well being and happiness.

 

Hopefully these criticisms are more coming from love, like when a parent sees a child who could achieve more. You contribute to making things better by how you work at matches and how you run your stage. Which indeed every time I've shot one you're at they have been exemplary.

 

But what can we as competitors do? Is it really just write an email to those in charge?

[Chills1994]

44 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

The popper is not in the same state it was in before the competitor shot it. It moved when it was hit, so it was hit twice before it fell. 

 

Yeah, what he ^^^ said!