Timer not picking up the shots on many PCC's

[Dirty_J]

Or. Maybe you’re just not able to keep up any more. 

[71Commander]

8 hours ago, Dirty_J said:

Or. Maybe you’re just not able to keep up any more. 

Then get an age limit on RO's. If you can't run a 4.4- 40 then you're not qualified.

[mreed911]

5 hours ago, 71Commander said:

Then get an age limit on RO's. If you can't run a 4.4- 40 then you're not qualified.

 

I'm not old and I can still run a 40 in 4.4 minutes. 

[RickT]

I don't even have to try to pick up my wife's 10/22 with a Wiland barrel.  PCCs are obviously no problem.  The AMG timer is pretty amazing.  Even so, if I'm timing a gun/competitor new to me I'll reach under/over and turn the display so I can see the shots being recorded. (Steel Challenge obviously)

Edited April 29, 2021 by RickT

[zzt]

1 hour ago, RickT said:

I don't even have to try to pick up my wife's 10/22 with a Wiland barrel. 

 

Wiland 22 barrels are actually surprisingly loud.  It is uncompensated rifle barrels with SV loads that cause problems with the 7000 timers.  Last Sat a woman was shooting a suppressed 22 rifle for SCSA.  I turned the AMG sensitivity up to 7 and had zero problem picking up the shots.

[71Commander]

On 4/29/2021 at 4:55 PM, RickT said:

I'll reach under/over and turn the display so I can see the shots being recorded. (Steel Challenge obviously)

That's how I do it. You do run a risk of RO interference. It's the part time RO where the problems arise.

[zzt]

The problem with turning the CED7000 timers most often used is you are effectively decreasing sensitivity.  As far as I'm concerned, they are the worst timers in common use.  The Competition Electronics Pro timers can easily be turned so you can see the display while keeping the port facing the gun AND you are still watching the gun.  The original Pro does not have a shot count readout.  The Pro II does.  It also suffers a lot less than the 7000 with false positives with echoes.  If I can't use my AMG, I prefer the Pro II.  

[RickT]

On 4/29/2021 at 4:26 PM, zzt said:

 

Wiland 22 barrels are actually surprisingly loud.  It is uncompensated rifle barrels with SV loads that cause problems with the 7000 timers.  Last Sat a woman was shooting a suppressed 22 rifle for SCSA.  I turned the AMG sensitivity up to 7 and had zero problem picking up the shots.

Thinking back I believe you're right.  I've had instances where I was a bit casual on the first shot and didn't pick it up, but was able to get in position for the stop plate, some stages being more awkward than others:)

[barrysuperhawk]

I have had the best luck installing a "Tanker brake" style comp on my 9mm AR's  Basically you are looking for flat, baffles that are perpendicular to the bore to get the most sound.  The ones I went with are $20 or so on fleabay, and even come with a jam nut.  

 

As far as the haters go, I started shooting USPSA when there was only Limited and Open.  Some guys were still gutting it out with comped single stack .45's and tasco red dots, then Tangfolio and Para Ordinance hi cap guns started showing up and once the owners got them to run, there was no competition.  As an open sight single stack guy back then, I HATED shooting against the wondernines, but I was OK because my .45 scored more points.  Then .40's started getting popular, and as a pretty good compromise between capacity and power factor, started whooping ass.  Pretty soon after, USPSA came up with the Provisional Single Stack class.   And then there was Limited 10 and all of the variations that came after, most of which were invented to try to level the playing field because some places limited magazine capacity or because someone had this cool gun that they wanted to shoot but didn't quite fit the rules.  Nowadays, there is a class for everything in its own little niche, and that now includes PCC.  PCC really annoys open shooters the worst because of the perception that somehow they are easier and thus displacing the open shooters from their rightfully purchased position at the top of the heap.  NEWS FLASH, it's not easier, its just that many of us that shoot PCC have practiced ALOT with a carbine, and practice beats a big wallet every day of the week and twice on Sundays.  Its funny, because the CO shooters seem to have squeaked in and don't catch nearly as much grief when someone with a $500 gun beats mr "I paid $4500 for this gun and $150 each for the mags".  In my neck of the woods, its PCC and CO that vie for the top spots and open guys HATE it. 

 

I will leave you with this, PCC isn't NEW, its just that we now have rules for it:

Me shooting a PCC in a USPSA match in 1997 almost 25 years ago.

 

 

 

 

[Chillywig]

On 5/2/2021 at 5:31 PM, barrysuperhawk said:

I will leave you with this, PCC isn't NEW, its just that we now have rules for it:

Me shooting a PCC in a USPSA match in 1997 almost 25 years ago.

 

I couldn't see your video - it says it is set to private.

 

Our club had enough interest and starting let people run PCC for the second gun around 2008. This is with the ol rock river running colt mags. Good times!

https://youtu.be/Z8jllCLflCE

 

 

[mitommy]

On 4/28/2021 at 6:45 PM, Dirty_J said:

It’s an RO problem. Not an equipment problem. 
 

The even worse problem... is RO’s that aren’t looking at the timer to even know with certainty if they picked up the last shot or not. It’s a big problem. 

I was trained that the RO should be watching the gun & trigger finger during movement. That makes watching the timer very difficult. 

[Sarge]

4 hours ago, mitommy said:

I was trained that the RO should be watching the gun & trigger finger during movement. That makes watching the timer very difficult. 

You have to learn. If an RO can’t verify the timer is getting the shots they’re doing it wrong.

[zzt]

7 hours ago, mitommy said:

I was trained that the RO should be watching the gun & trigger finger during movement. That makes watching the timer very difficult. 

 

I was trained the same way.  After a while it dawned on me that the training was centered around LII and LII matches where there is a CRO and two ROs for each stage.  It doesn't work that way in LI matches.  Years ago a post Sarge made on the subject made sense to me.  You watch the gun and trigger finger like a hawk when it counts, as in running, transitions, clearing jams, etc.  When the shooter is stationary hosing down an array it is not so critical.  So you do have time to glance at the timer to make sure it is picking up shots.  I'm so used to it now it has become second nature.  Some timers, like the CED 7000 make this more difficult.  The CE Pro and Pro II make this easy.  The AMG is not far behind.  Even though the AMG doesn't miss shots, it still pays to check.

 

All of the timers mentioned except the original Pro count shots.  That is helpful in confirming you caught all of them.  I generally count shots on shorter stages, but only makeup shots on longer.  If it is a 32 shot stage and you counted two makeups, the timer should show 34.  If it does, you caught all of them.  That is important with the 7000 timer because it is prone to pick up echoes.  If it shows 40 shots on a 32 round stage you have the sensitivity set too high.

[barrysuperhawk]

On 5/6/2021 at 8:17 PM, Chillywig said:

I couldn't see your video - it says it is set to private.

 

Our club had enough interest and starting let people run PCC for the second gun around 2008. This is with the ol rock river running colt mags. Good times!

https://youtu.be/Z8jllCLflCE

 

 

I reset it to hidden, wonder if that will work.  I'm trying not to get my channel deleted 

[StealthyBlagga]

On 4/28/2021 at 3:45 PM, Dirty_J said:

It’s an RO problem. Not an equipment problem. 
 

The even worse problem... is RO’s that aren’t looking at the timer to even know with certainty if they picked up the last shot or not. It’s a big problem. 

THIS

[Dirty_J]

On 5/7/2021 at 2:22 AM, mitommy said:

I was trained that the RO should be watching the gun & trigger finger during movement. That makes watching the timer very difficult. 

During movement - Yes. You watch the gun to ensure no fingers in the trigger guard and that it's in a safe direction as per the rules. 

 

But once they're to the final shooting position... you don't need to watch that quite as closely. The shooter isn't likely to be moving... and the likelihood of breaking a 180 is pretty low once they've stopped moving. Obviously if they have to do a standing reload or malfunction clearance.. you want to watch that... but they've still got shots yet to fire if that's happening... so you watch the gun and then you shift to the timer. 

 

If you aren't 100% sure that you've gotten an accurate time... then what's the point of even using a timer? To have any competitive equity in this sport... you've got to start with ensuring with ABSOLUTE certainty that you've captured the last shot. 

Edited May 12, 2021 by Dirty_J