Pcc clarification

[Acsr]

I'm not A PCC shooter but I was curious as a stage designer how can A PCC shoot a stage where something like a bowling ball or suitcase needs to be carried to use as a activator what's the legality on that

[zzt]

Per USPSA rules it is only illegal the require a PCC shooter shoot one handed.  It is perfectly permissible to require a PCC shooter to pick up a prop.  BTW, bowling ball???

[Acsr]

2 hours ago, zzt said:

Per USPSA rules it is only illegal the require a PCC shooter shoot one handed.  It is perfectly permissible to require a PCC shooter to pick up a prop.  BTW, bowling ball???

So if it has a handle that a pcc can loop a hand through while gripping the fore end it would be okay?  Bowling ball it's easy to grip with finger holes rather than cradling a basketball or the like

[egd5]

The question for me is, why would anyone want to design a silly stage like that? This isn't idpa.

[Ming the Merciless]

47 minutes ago, egd5 said:

The question for me is, why would anyone want to design a silly stage like that? This isn't idpa.

 

I actually shot a major USPSA match many, many years ago, back when you actually had to do physical things in stages like climb walls, go through windows, cooper tunnels, kick down doors, etc...  The shooter started the stage holding a bowling ball and had to shoot several targets on the way to the "Bowling Alley", then drop the bowling ball in a barrel that funneled the ball onto a track.  The ball rolled down the track activating various moving, swinging, and bobbing targets and no-shoots as the shooter moved down and across the bay.  What a great stage!  We got a petition going with probably 50 or 60 signatures to extend the match another day, just so we could come back and play on that stage.

 

Sadly, we never got to shoot the stage again.  As I remember the stage ran pretty well with few re-shoots.  If my memory is correct the stage was designed by an actual rocket scientist.

 

 

Edited March 4, 2021 by Ming the Merciless

[BillChunn]

9 hours ago, egd5 said:

The question for me is, why would anyone want to design a silly stage like that? This isn't idpa.

 

Falls into the category of "stupid human tricks" and has nothing to do with shooting ability.  But shooters love those stages....

 

BC

[gerritm]

I shoot PCC. Have had several stages where we were required to hold or carry an item. As said just can't require to shoot 1 handed. A bowling ball would not be a good idea if you had to shoot with it, would be begging to hurt someone, drop on toes, or DQ trap. But an ammo can small suitcase/briefcase, etc. with a handle probably wouldn't be an issue. Even had one with a small 2# dumbell as long as you can safely hold it & shoot with both hands it would be OK.

 

gerritm

[WxGuy]

I'm an old guy shooting PCC and I wouldn't do it or might opt to not shoot the stage.  Unsafe.  I would take the procedural(s) if I were to shoot.  This is supposed to be fun?  IMHO, a stage like described is pistol only and expect to see it in rule-rich IDPA.

[Acsr]

Occasionally I like to build stages that require weak hand strong hand shooting, instead of the stand and shoot style,  so using a prop to activate a stomp pad that is at the front of the stage with said prop.  I'm not talking about a circus stage just a little variety nothing crazy heavy or "pistol centered stage" fair equity across all divisions.

[zzt]

13 hours ago, Acsr said:

So if it has a handle that a pcc can loop a hand through while gripping the fore end it would be okay?  Bowling ball it's easy to grip with finger holes rather than cradling a basketball or the like

 

Legal yes.  Dumb stage design, yes.  Most of those stage designs went out with the popularity of PCC.  I've never seen a stage that required you to shoot on the move while holding a prop.  I'd consider that unsafe for a PCC.  Usually the WSB will require a one hand on barrel start, or pick up a sand bag and throw it onto an activator.  At three of the four clubs I shoot USPSA at, more complex, challenging stage design has replaced the "tricks'.  However, there are still 'tricks' at LII and LIII matches, and some of them are quite stupid DQ traps.  

[Acsr]

1 hour ago, zzt said:

 

Legal yes.  Dumb stage design, yes.  Most of those stage designs went out with the popularity of PCC.  I've never seen a stage that required you to shoot on the move while holding a prop.  I'd consider that unsafe for a PCC.  Usually the WSB will require a one hand on barrel start, or pick up a sand bag and throw it onto an activator.  At three of the four clubs I shoot USPSA at, more complex, challenging stage design has replaced the "tricks'.  However, there are still 'tricks' at LII and LIII matches, and some of them are quite stupid DQ traps.  

Hard to call a stage design dumb because it presents a challenge I'm in the belief that the line is not blurred between unsafe and challenging that would be on the shooter to decide the safest and fastest way to shoot a stage.  

[zzt]

1 hour ago, Acsr said:

Hard to call a stage design dumb because it presents a challenge I'm in the belief that the line is not blurred between unsafe and challenging that would be on the shooter to decide the safest and fastest way to shoot a stage.  

 

I love challenging stages.  We were taught to make safe stages.  No 180 traps, nothing that could be potentially unsafe.  We killed one stage because executing according to the WSB would have put the Timing RO at severe risk if something went wrong.   The MDs finally agreed when several of us said we would not RO that stage.  Shooting a PCC while running and carrying a prop with the support hand is not as bad, but still unacceptable IMO.  Safety, safety, safety.  I would call that out at setup and have the WSB modified.  YMMV.

[gerritm]

2 hours ago, Acsr said:

Hard to call a stage design dumb because it presents a challenge I'm in the belief that the line is not blurred between unsafe and challenging that would be on the shooter to decide the safest and fastest way to shoot a stage.  

Challenge is one thing safety is quite another. If there is no safe way to do it then sounds to me like you want to penalize the PCC shooter while making the stage possible for the pistol shooter. I can easily carry a bowling ball in 1 hand while shooting a pistol in the other. I have run across several times in matches where that is the goal.

 

One such stage was to hold on to a rope, stretch left & right as far as it could go in left and right hand around walls to shoot several targets, only way to do this was one handed, fine to shoot 1 handed for a pistol, not for PCC. We refused to shoot it, dropped the rope, and took the procedural penalties. Funny thing was several pistol shooters were DQ'ed for AD's. Any stage design should be balanced & somewhat equal in difficulty, challenge,  & safety to all shooters including pistol/pcc, left & right handed.

 

gerritm

[egd5]

4 hours ago, Acsr said:

Hard to call a stage design dumb because it presents a challenge I'm in the belief that the line is not blurred between unsafe and challenging that would be on the shooter to decide the safest and fastest way to shoot a stage.  

What kind of challenge, a shooting challenge or an acrobatic challenge? We are running a shooting course, not an obstacle course.

[RaylanGivens]

You can't force a PCC shooter to shoot one handed...  But a PCC shooter can choose to shoot one handed if he wants to.

 

If you feel the need for shooting while carrying a bowling ball on the move, the PCC shooter can set down the ball and shoot with two hands if he wants to...  Then pick up the ball and run again...  or shoot one handed on the move if he'd rather.

 

[Steve RA]

I don't think a match/stage needs to have stages half the shooters can't accomplish, but without some movement and various challenges it might as well be a bullseye match.

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[zzt]

I think it is silly to design a stage that deliberately handicaps PCCs.  When they first started to become popular, that was the case, mostly inadvertently.   Although I did hear one designer say he did that to f*** PCC shooters.  Nowadays, everyone I know designs stages to be PCC friendly.

[robertg5322]

2 hours ago, egd5 said:

What kind of challenge, a shooting challenge or an acrobatic challenge? We are running a shooting course, not an obstacle course.

I feel the same way about super low ports, that require you to either squat so low your thighs are below parallel. I can do it, but it's not fun. 

 

In my opinion, for every port that requires this of normal height people in the 5'10" to 6'2" range (also not friendly to us full figured fellas), there should be a port or wall that requires short people (those that usually are the ones designing these low ports) to use some sort of step. Cause Equality!!!!

 

I kid, but I'd also like to see more handicap obstacles that affect short, skinny, or fit shooters.

 

And making a stage that rifle shooters have to contort needlessly just cause you don't like rifle shooters is kind of a d!ck move.

[Acsr]

A bowling ball is a bad prop, but traversing a stage with a challenge is always welcoming to me.  Safety while shooting is always the highest importance,  but I'll be upfront I do think that there is a difference in 180 traps and shooter accountability, which I know im in the minority. Really appreciate the clarification of the rules as well as the comments on the subject. 

[Ccampo1129]

Shot a stage not too long ago there was a powder jug to be carried from the back of the stage to the front and had to be used to activate the stomp box(it was filled with sand). I hooked it on my mag on my belt and it worked great!

A lot of people argued the legality.... RO and match director said it was legal.

[LowSpeedHighDrag]

On 3/3/2021 at 7:37 PM, zzt said:

Per USPSA rules it is only illegal the require a PCC shooter shoot one handed.  It is perfectly permissible to require a PCC shooter to pick up a prop.  BTW, bowling ball???

A few years ago I shot a level 3 match where a stage ended with the shooter having to use their weak hand to push out a window in a port and shoot all shots one-handed.  Mentioned to the MD that this put the PCC shooters in an awkward position.  I was told to suck it up and deal with it.  I wasn’t amused.