With No Hope Of Ever Winning... Would You Still Compete?

[38superman]

When I started my IPSC career 18 months ago, my motivation was just to have a little fun.

However, once I got into it, my competitive nature soon began to take over.

I became dissatisfied with always finishing in the middle of the pack.

I started investing in better equipment, and working at improving my technique.

It is my ambition to some day win a major match and claim a championship.

That may be unrealistic as I was already a senior when I started.

There is a limit to how long you can compete against kids half your age.

I have yet to place higher than 27th in a major match, but my skills still continue to improve.

In other words, I can still cling to hope that my day will come.

Yet I wonder if I will be able to stay motivated once my shooting skills peak and begin to decline.

I see a lot of casual shooters that will never be competitive for one reason or another, but they continue to come out to the range.

Will the pure joy of the sport be enough to keep you going when your competitive edge fades away?

Tls

[Jake Di Vita]

In my case....it doesn't matter if I have a chance to win. The day I stop striving to be the best is the day I die.

[XRe]

There is a limit to how long you can compete against kids half your age.

Probably - but TGO keeps proving that the gap isn't as narrow as we'd like to think it is

For me, some things are just fun, and I do them regardless of my potential to win. Golf is that way for me - I'm never going to play on the PGA Tour or beat Tiger Woods (except maybe in a highly leveraged handicap match ).

I find that what helps me be motivated is to not be focused on beating people as my prime goals, but instead to see how well I can perform. Winning is a pleasant side effect of that pursuit. At some point, my performance goals will likely have to change, as eye sight and physique begin to decline - but I can still "win" against my goals, even if I'm not beating the top dogs at major matches. As long as I'm having fun, the rest seems to fall in line anyway

BTW - 27th at a major is nothing to sniff at. Good job!

[vincent]

Why worry about winning? Do what is enjoyable. Sometimes the competition is enjoyable. Sometimes being away from the office is enjoyable. Sometimes it's the company of good friends. Don't confine yourself to only having fun from one aspect of your shooting.

[AikiDale]

I expect to have fun. The shooting is fun, the people are fun and getting better is fun. I look forward to winning being fun as well. Last year I placed 59th out of 66 Limited shooters at the Area 5 with 45% of Phil Straders winning score. This year I placed 54 out of 83 shooters at the Area 5 with 60% of Manny Braggs winning score. If I can keep improving like that in 2008 at the age of 57 I should win the Area 5 and be headed for the World Shoot in Bali!

[AlamoShooter]

18 month! ?,, did you mean to say 18 years? If you were a runner would you stop or not not enjoy if you couldn't beat the best? would being on the same track with the best in the state, the nation., the world. Take cliff or mountain climbing, would a pesrson have to climb the tallest. One of My goals is to shoot at my "Potential". If I ever do that for an entire event, "Wow " for me that would be a series of inner enlightenment. If on that day when it does happen and someone or someones have better scores. Than thats ok.

other people make more $$$, they may be better looking, stronger, younger. but other people are not ME. I am the only one that realy maters to compete against. Could I ahve don better? Was the prize worth the cost? would you put off your family to practice for events?

I have,/ had a good friend that competed at the cost of his life. He came to shoots and practiced for the National event. Instead of going to a doctor to check on blood spots in his crap After putting it off for almost a year , the cancer was spread to far. He was telling jokes to very end. But he did get a third place trophy at the nationl event.

[38superman]

IPSC is great fun and I truly enjoy doing it.

But some of you guys talk as if there were something wrong with wanting to be good at it.

I was fortunate enough to be present at the Nationals when the super squad ran their last stage. It was a tight race with several guys in position to win at the end.

I'm sure they were having fun, but I'm also sure they were intensely focused on winning the match.

I stood next to Blake Miguez's mother as he made his run.

She had her fingers crossed and I don't believe she took a breath through the entire 40 second field course.

IPSC is sport.

It is competition.

I will quit worrying about winning when they quit keeping score.

Tls

"I don't like to lose" - James T Kirk

[vluc]

Yet I wonder if I will be able to stay motivated once my shooting skills peak and begin to decline.

I see a lot of casual shooters that will never be competitive for one reason or another, but they continue to come out to the range.

Will the pure joy of the sport be enough to keep you going when your competitive edge fades away?

Tls

I think you just answered your own question....

Nothing wrong with wanting to be good at it, just remember we all shoot for different reasons.

[IPSCDRL]

With No Hope Of Ever Winning... Would You Still Compete?,

I sure do! :-)

[kimel]

Kind of depends on how you define "win".

If you define it in numerical terms and you must achieve 100% HOA at Nats/WorldShoot to "win" then you have a tough row to hoe...at least until TGO et al retire.

If you define "win" as first in class, first in division, first at the local/sectional/area match etc. then you have a much easier course.

If you define "win" as improving over the last match, having a good time, making new friends, and helping everyone else have a good time then "winning" is reallll simple.

I win at the local matches now and then but that isn't why I show up.

Winning in a numerical fashion at a large match is hard. It has to be or it wouldn't be worth the effort it requires.

If you enter any sport (Shooting, Golf, Tennis, etc.) and expect to be top dog in short order then you have set yourself up for failure due to unreasonable expectations.

Being competitive is part of human nature (especially male humans). But choose with who/what you are competing carefully. Control expectations.

Very few of us do this for a living. We do it because it is FUN and is a diversion away from the more mundane things in life like our jobs.

For me, tearing myself away from my damn job for a few hours, having a good time, and improving over my last match is a solid win.

YMMV...

[GuildSF4]

Second what Kimel said.

I shoot because I have fun doing it, it is even fun (most of the time) to RO especially at a major match.

[Jim Norman]

I shoot to have fun. If I wanted to win, I would likely retire as a Match Director, and show up 30 minutes before the match starts rather than 3 hours early and building two stages. Such is the life of a 50+ YO shooter. I can generally hold my own against the locals. As I move up through Section, Area and Nats I slip some, partly due to the fact that I am too interested in just having fun and am not serious enough about winning. Problem is, If I get too serious about winning, then I may get discouraged if I don't and that will take the fun aeay. If it stops being fun, I like most would probably stoip doing it. I already have a job, Shooting is not it.

Jim Norman

[tightloop]

tllshores

I am getting to this thread a bit late, but I think you and are are mostly on the same page...I too am a senior, and I too am an A personality and do not like to loose...I have played to WIN at everything through out my life and pistol shooting is no exception...

I shot IPSC from 79 thru 86 with a tiny bit of success...won some local matches, won the Tx team match, placed in the top 16 at the Natls one yr, finished in the top 60 at the world shoot way back there, but stopped shooting when the hi cap 38 Supers and dot sights became the thing...

Tried a comeback in 98 but my gear was hopelessly out classed, shooting a dual port comped .45 single stack with Bomars against hi caps and a dot sight, but the thing that I hated was the fact that they did not seem to be having a good time unless they ran two city blocks before they drew their pistol...I like you, could shoot with the kids but could not run with the kids...went to two matches and did not go back..

In 99 discovered IDPA, or as my friend said to me, IPSC for Old Men...seemed to be my cup of tea....did not have to run, single stack friendly, no dot sights, good stuff...shot it from 99 thru 02, won several state master CDP championships, Tx senior championship, and had a good time...then the personalities and politics got into it and put an end to the fun...

Bottom line is this...give it some more time, 18 months is not nearly enough. Get the BEST gear you can afford and the most trick stuff that is legal, dry fire a minimum of 1 hour a day, get Steve Andersons book, get Brians book, and pick the matches you want to shoot...Pickmatches with classifiers that do not have to run a half mile or engage 30 targets...pick some stand and shoot classifiers like Bang & Clang, El Prez and some others..have a goal of getting to A class in one yr and then try to make Master..that will tell me you can shoot against the kids...

You may never win a National match, or an Area match but your chances of being a force locally are good and you will always be a threat to win the local matches...that in itself is great and would satisfy me as a senior...don;t know about you, but that is my two cents worth...Hope that helps put some perspective on it for you...

Yes, I tried another comeback last yr, and got my butt soundly kicked...there are some people who I will NEVER beat and that is hard for me...but there is always Clays and benchrest...lol..

Best of luck..

[AustinMike]

I don't consider myself to be a real competitive person, but I do like to know that I did the best I could possibly do. I try not to dwell to much on where I place in local matches right now. I know I'll be in the lower third most of the time, but above me will be be shooters who have been doing this a lot longer than me, many of them in Master and A class. I've only been doing this a few months, so while I strive to be my best, it's rather futile to think that I'm going place anywhere near a Master.

I love shooting the local matches and I'd like to shoot a major match someday, but that will probably be quite a ways off. Not placing real high in a local match is one thing, but I figure if I'm going to spend all the money for a high match fee, plus travel expenses, I'd like to go in thinking I've at least got a slim chance of winning something! I couldn't see spending all the cash just for fun, when I can shoot locally for a fraction of the cost. It's only $15-20 to get my butt kicked in a local match (and have a good time, of course.) So, yes, all things considered, having "no hope of winning" does keep me from competing when we're talking big matches where there is considerable cost involved.

The other thing for me personally is that I don't want to deal with the stress and pressure of trying to "shoot to win." Shooting, like my other hobbies, is something I do for enjoyment. It's an escape from the daily rat race. So, while I want to do my best and strive for the next level, I'm not willing to get all worked up over being a winning shooter and dealing with the potential disappointment. I do want to improve myself as a shooter over time, but I want to keep a balanced approach. If I push myself too hard, shooting becomes another job and I work way too much as it is! If it becomes stressful and not fun, it's time to back off.

[Hank Ellis]

+1 what Kimel said. Seems as if he and I are on the spot on the radio dial.

Another skydiving story. Different sport. Same attitude.

Back in the early 90's I was just fluffing out my flying feathers. Had around 600 jumps. Enough to be reasonably safe but not near good enough to play on the 'hot' loads. One Saturday night beer bust at the DZ a few others in the same boat as I thought we should start a team and compete. The sole reason was to get our skills on the fast track to skygod status.

The next day we dug out the dive pool and started going to work. An entire summer, 275 jumps, a few thousand dollars in lift tickets, and a lifetime of memories later we showed up at the US Nationals. Knowing our skill level relative to our competition we shot for a mid place finish in Intermediate 4-way. We KNEW we weren't going to take first place. We KNEW that we would be some unknown Texas / Coonass team that nobody would remember a month from the meet. But we had our goal.

We met our goal. Busted the chops of teams with twice as many jumps as we had due to our discipline. Got our chops busted due to our inexperience. A mid place finish. We partied the night away. We met our goal. We had won OUR match.

What does all this have to do with shooting. Plenty. Every match for me has a goal. If I meet the goal, I win. If I don't, I work on what I have to do to make that goal. It's the simple things. I once worked on the sub 10 sec El Pres. Made that. Worked till I made the sub 9 sec El Pres. Made that. I've now got a goal of a 8.5 Prez with no more than 6 points down. A match with no Mikes. Made it once. Need to do it again. Do a match dropping less than 10% of the points.

Everybody’s idea of winning is different. I have my goals, you have yours. Enjoy the journey.

[Ron Ankeny]

Without a hope of winning would I still compete? Oh heck yes. In fact, I spent a whole season trying to shoot in a division that I need to just abandon, and I cherish the experience. Frankly, I am frustrated by my vision, arthritis, and all of the things that go along with aging a bit prematurely. I hate it and I hate to loose. But, I still have a lot to learn even if I can't exectute new techniques at the speed of light. Shooting, learning, the companionship, it's all good. With the exception of brief periods of burnout from over indulgence, I expect I'll shoot until I am no longer safe enough to be on the range.

Edited October 27, 2005 by Ron Ankeny

[davidball]

Strive to win within the constraints that life imposes (time to train, money for equipment, natural physical ability, age, etc.) but ENJOY THE JOURNEY. As long as I am better today than I was yesterday, I have won.

[lynn jones]

keep shooting, it's fun. outlive everyone else and you'll win.

lynn

[Shooter Grrl]

First of all, there is always hope because the ability to win is within you. As with everything else in life, ya gotta want it to work at it and ya gotta work at it to get it!

The people at the top of the sport did not just show up there - they wanted it, they worked for it, they got it.

[rupie]

Strive to win within the constraints that life imposes (time to train, money for equipment, natural physical ability, age, etc.) but ENJOY THE JOURNEY. As long as I am better today than I was yesterday, I have won.

Well said, I put in my sig

[Clay1]

We all shoot for different reasons. I love to shoot and do consider myself very competitive. On the other hand it is not just about wanting it. Saul Kirsch talks about winning as a prepared for event. You have to do the things required of a champion. When he lays out his training schedule, over and over he asks, is it worth it for you? Are you really willing to do what it takes. Bluntly my answer is no, it's not worth it to me to be a champion.

The above might come as a shock to some, but I think that I am realistic. Champions are willing to do what unsuccessful people are not willing to do. Do I train 4 or 5 days a week? Do I dry fire 4 or 5 hours at a time? Do I eat right for competition? Do I do cardio, stretching and weight training 3 or 4 days a week to compete? Until I can answer yes to all of those, I have chosen not to be a champion or in my definition win.

Can I shoot 2 times a week and dry fire 2 times a week? Yes, I can. Can I shoot a couple matches a month? Yes, I can. This gives me a chance to improve my skills and be a better shooter, but I am fooling myself if I think that will turn me into a true champion.

[boo radley]

Interesting post. Clay1.

As I read a lot of threads here, I wonder sometimes if the amount of work needed to succeed is: a) minimized? taken for granted? c) greatly cerebral, if natural talent exists.

It's seems very little advice is along the lines of, "Do XYZ, and after 50,000 rounds, you'll start seeing...." I don't even know if that would be * good * advice, but just wondering.

( == "b )" )

Edited October 28, 2005 by boo radley

[vincent]

As I read a lot of threads here, I wonder sometimes if the amount of work needed to succeed is: a) minimized? cool.gif taken for granted? c) greatly cerebral, if natural talent exists.

I think the amount of work to be a true champion is very often minimized. It's funny how many people complain about thier shooting but when asked don't have a structured practice plan. People who have that are few and far between. Adding diet and exercise to the mix would exclude just about everyone I know. Most people want to talk about getting better but don't really want to make the commitment to get there.

[Jake Di Vita]

That last line in Vincent's post is the absolute truth.

A lot of people I talk to or instruct ask me what I did to get where I am. When I tell them I often get responses like "I would never do that."

You can't become competitive on the national (even state) level without an excessive (bordering obsessive) work ethic.

[John Heiter]

I started to make a joke about how good I am but no one would believe it and that got me thinking about another line...would you continue competing if you always won. I guess he's starting to get some competition now but for a long time there if Jerry showed up, Jerry won. He had to have days where he just felt like he was playing cards with his brother's kids but he still stuck with it. I guess you have some people out for the win and others whose satisfaction comes from competing against themselves.