With No Hope Of Ever Winning... Would You Still Compete?

[Jake Di Vita]

That's a good point. I think all of the top competitors compete against themselves....it just so happens their skills are so developed that if their goal is solely performance based....chances are they will win if they meet their goal.

[38superman]

John,

That is an interesting twist to the original question I asked.

I suppose those that always win are motivated my the same things as those that never do.

You just have to love the sport.

I may have given the impression that winning is all I care about and that's not the truth.

It is a pleasant side effect of what really motivates me.

I have had too many matches where I couldn't do anything right.

Penalty after penalty, spraying ammo all over the landscape, dropping mags, etc.

But there was one special day when I couldn't miss.

I got into a zone and shot better and faster than I ever thought possible.

I shot an entire match (12 stages) without a mike.

It was a magical, almost euphoric feeling.

I liked it.

I want more.

Tls

[GuildSF4]

I have had too many matches where I couldn't do anything right.

Penalty after penalty, spraying ammo all over the landscape, dropping mags, etc.

Havn't we all...

But there was one special day when I couldn't miss.

I got into a zone and shot better and faster than I ever thought possible.

I shot an entire match (12 stages) without a mike.

It was a magical, almost euphoric feeling.

I liked it.

I want more.

I think most would say that is what it is all about. We want more stages and matches like that.

[BSeevers]

I say yes because I have had periods of Non-winning. Still here.

[Sam]

tls,

I tried to win an important match this year by holding back and staying in my comfort level. You know, like shooting at about 85% of my ability to avoid mistakes. And for a few stages, I actually allowed my desire to win to become more important than doing my best. That may sound like a contradiction at first, but let it sink in.

Fortunately, events conspired that forced me shoot the last half of that match like a wild man. And when it was over, I was so pleased at how I'd performed flat-out-balls-to-the-wall when the pressure was on, that winning really didn't matter anymore.

The lesson I learned was that you gotta go "hell for leather" no matter what your current skill level. That is the true meaning of competition. The truth is that you can suck, and still win. And you can win, and still suck.

Do your dead-level best every time you strap a gun on and you may never win. But I guarantee that you'll never suck!

[Merlin Orr]

tls,

........The lesson I learned was that you gotta go "hell for leather" no matter what your current skill level. That is the true meaning of competition. The truth is that you can suck, and still win. And you can win, and still suck.

Do your dead-level best every time you strap a gun on and you may never win. But I guarantee that you'll never suck!

Damn!

[kevin c]

But there was one special day when I couldn't miss.

I got into a zone and shot better and faster than I ever thought possible.

I shot an entire match (12 stages) without a mike.

It was a magical, almost euphoric feeling.

Did you win that day? Would it have changed how you felt about your shooting one way or another?

Until a recent GSSF match I had NEVER finished first in any pistol match, ever (and the GSSF match win was in a side event only). In my favored USPSA Limited shooting, I have not ever even finished first in my class, even in a club match. This in ten years plus of shooting.

I still shoot, I occasionally see progress, and that is satisfying. I still have fun. I certainly want to get better faster, but I see that others who progress faster than I do really do have more dedication, drive and time to devote to developing their skills than I do, so I remain philosophical about it (and of course, there is that talent thing... ).

I enjoy the sport too much to let myself be driven away from it by trying to compete and failing at a level that requires more time and effort than I am will to spend away from my family.

If I get to that magical place you did, even if I finish dead last, I'll still be euphoric, and will cherish that moment as much as a first place trophy.

This works for me, YMMV.

[AzShooter]

Would I still compete, yes. I may not be competitive but I would still shoot because of the enjoyment I get from doing it and because of many of the people I've been blessed to meet over the years.

A few months ago someone mentiioned my terrible shake when I was shooting. Just another problem that has occured over the years but I shot that stage the best I could even with the shakes and had fun doing it. Not a winning score but it was fun.

Over the years I've learned that shooting is something I do. Winning will not make my family love me more or change my life. I do it because I enjoy it.

[38superman]

Did you win that day? Would it have changed how you felt about your shooting one way or another?

Kevin,

It was at Area 6 and I did win my class that day.

I was shooting "C" in limited with almost 40 others in that class and division.

To answer your question, I would have been happy with my performance no matter what the outcome.

I can say that with conviction because I know that I was at my best on that particular day.

However, there was a certain satisfaction in placing 1st.

I worked out at the gym for 2 months and lost 10 lbs. in preparation for that match.

Placing sort of validates your effort and lets you know that you are doing something right.

I was squadded with Juan Saldarriaga who is a friend and a bit of a rival.

Our skills are very evenly matched and we were pushing each other all day.

That only added to the fun.

He finished 2nd, but I assure you, if he had won I would have been happy for him.

(Just as I was when he kicked my tail a month earlier at the Ala sectional).

Tls

Edited October 29, 2005 by tlshores

[George]

once my shooting skills peak and begin to decline

That will only happen when you stop thinking you can improve ;-)

I never believe there is no chance of winning, I always assume that winning is just another step of improvement away. Competition is all about getting better all the time. Winning is the logical goal of competition. Nuff' said.

[Ferrell Spicer]

I would still shoot, but I don't think I'll give up hope of winning. Winning my class is not always fun if I know that I made big mental errors or other things that I should not have done. There have been lots of times when I have been sitting around thinking how much I wanted to improve, but instead of getting up off my butt and dryfiring or going to the range, I made an excuse not to. Like Jake said, you have to put in the time and work to get better. That's my new goal. For now, I'm competing against myself, the rest will take care of itself.

[BSeevers]

I read this wrong. No hope of ever winning is a strong statement. I still will always shoot and can really relate to Sam's comments about going "hell for leather" Its one of the components of my personality too. My creed is Never Quit, Never Give Up, and Never Surrender.

It is a little interesting to think of this topic because I know what it takes to win and its a lot. Time, money, blood, sweat, and tears to name a few..

When I lost it could be because of events (broken gun, injury etc.) or lack of preparation(no time or money). I never let that affect the next match is the point I was trying to make in my previous post.

Edited October 29, 2005 by BSeevers

[magchange]

Bill you proved you would still shoot(no matter the predicted outcome) when you shot limited at Area 5

[kevin c]

...I did win my class that day...(and)...I would have been happy with my performance no matter what the outcome...

Cool, and congratulations

Kevin C.

[BSeevers]

Bill you proved you would still shoot(no matter the predicted outcome) when you shot limited at Area 5

Hey Steve

Come on give me a break,

Gun malfunctioned on every other stage.

Open gun broke on Friday so I picked up Limited and drove to Louisville, I shot good, but the gun didn't.

[glock17w]

I shoot because I like doing it. It is fun to me just like golf is fun for some people and playing basketball is fun for others. Most people who golf or play basketball know that they will never make it to the PGA or the NBA but they play the game. THey do it because it makes them happy. That is the same reason why I think people shoot even though they may never have a chance of winning. It makes them happy.

Shooting is our sport, our hobby. One day we went out to the range and one time we hit the target we were aiming at and became addicted to the sport. The next time we missed the target we aimed at and became even more addicted. Our drive to shoot more accurate and faster than at least one other person keeps us going.

By the way, Jake, what did you do in your quest to become as good as you are? I was wondering.

[ima45dv8]

I was squadded with Juan Saldarriaga who is a friend and a bit of a rival.

Our skills are very evenly matched and we were pushing each other all day.

That only added to the fun.

He finished 2nd, but I assure you, if he had won I would have been happy for him.

(Just as I was when he kicked my tail a month earlier at the Ala sectional).

Tls

Tony, THIS is the real reason I shoot even when I might not feel like I can win that day (bad mental juju; must quit doing that).

I often squad with people of similar skills and we push each other. Even if I don't win and they do, I'll try to make damned sure they earned it! The good natured ribbing and the heart-felt congratulations of valued friends and peers is priceless.

[boo radley]

The lesson I learned was that you gotta go "hell for leather" no matter what your current skill level. That is the true meaning of competition.

What does "hell for leather" mean in the context, though, of shooting IPSC?

Excusing unfortunate S&M innuendos, I'd like to be hell-for-leather on myself, in terms of mental discipline, like avoiding getting lazy and letting my concentration lapse, avoiding mistakes, etc....

But I'm finally starting to shoot with a little bit of visual patience, and don't want to lose it. I started off this game trying to shoot everything as fast as I possibly could and discovered: the bottom of the standings.

[Clay1]

As I read the answers to this post, I see that there are many different definitions to the word win. Some read it as a class win or a local match win. That would be different.

I read the original question as winning an area or state or national match shooting scratch. Being the best at the match. I'm a C class shooter and winning a C class match at the local club is much different than winning the world shoot in Standard division etc. So defining what winning means to you is very important in this question.

Again, those that really are at the very top of the game make huge sacrafices and are willing to do the things that many of us are not really willing to do. I'm married, (21 years) and would like to stay that way. I have 3 children, who need some guidance from a father who is home once in a while. We all make decisions in our lives.

Saul's new book has been a great read for me. I am setting goals with time tables and stepping up my training. I still don't believe that I think it is worth it to really make the committments needed to win as I define win. We all make our own decisions. Good luck making yours.

Rick

[John Dunn]

Yes.

I have a blast shooting dirt clods with my .22. I like shooting, so I will shoot.

At my current skill level I function as a spoiler at local matches. If the big dogs slip, I'm there. It's not as good as being a big dog, but for now it's enough.

[Steve Moneypenny]

I will be honest, if i could not realistically see my self being able to compete at the top level and win matches i would pick a different hobby. One that atleast isn't as expensive and require this much travel.

Maybe I'm living in a fools world but i love this stuff, and i hope that by winning that some day i may be able to make a descent living. Through training and other means within the industry.

[38superman]

The focus of this thread seems to have become soley about "winning".

That was part of my original question but not really what was on my mind when I asked it.

I was thinking more about how much I respect and admire the seniors, super seniors and the shooters with physical handicaps.

Some of them are excellect competitors that regularly shoot circles around me.

But time takes its toll on all of us and like aging athletes in any sport, sooner or later every one of us will face a decision.

Carry on, or head for the recliner to practice speed draws with the remote.

At the tender young age of 53 I already know the joy of having my eyesight deteriorate year by year.

I know the fatigue at the end of a 12 stage match when your tail is dragging like you just ran a triathalon and your lower back feels like a mule kicked you.

(At that point somebody else can bend over and reset the steel, I'll just paste).

Is it just me or does everybody have a bottle of Aleve in their range bag?

Whatever it is that drives those guys to keep going, I only hope I have a little of it in me.

Tls

Edited October 31, 2005 by tlshores

[Sean Gaines]

Some of them are excellect competitors that regularly shoot circles around me.

But time takes its toll on all of us and like aging athletes in any sport, sooner or later every one of us will face a decision.

Carry on, or head for the recliner to practice speed draws with the remote.

I know this is kind of a serious topic, but I think you will always compete until the day you die. Here's a joke that I recieved in an email that made me think of this thread and competiion in general. hope this helps, if not maybe you will get a laugh out of it.

FART FOOTBALL................

An old married couple no sooner hit the pillows when the old man

passes gas and says, "Seven Points."

His wife rolls over and says, "What in the world was that?" The old

man replied, "It's fart football."

A few minutes later his wife lets one go and says "Touchdown, tie

score."

After about five minutes the old man lets another one go and says,

"Aha. I'm ahead 14 to 7."

Not to be outdone the wife rips out another one and says,

"Touchdown, tie score."

Five seconds go by and she lets out a little squeaker and says,

"Field goal, I lead 17 to 14." Now the pressure is on the old man.

He refuses to get beaten by a woman, so he strains real hard. Since

defeat is totally unacceptable, he gives it everything he's got, and

accidentally poops in the bed.

The wife says, "What the hell was that?"

The old man says, "Half time, switch sides."

[short_round]

There is something that this topic reminded me of and it's been bothering me ever since I first read the title ... now I remember:

"If you had no hope of ever surviving life ... would you still live?"

Is it just me or does everybody have a bottle of Aleve in their range bag?

I carry Advil

[38superman]

"If you had no hope of ever surviving life ... would you still live?"

A good point but not a fair comparison.

Winning a match is a reasonable expectation.

Immortality is not.

Tls