2011 and Carry optics

[OpenshooterMclass4lyfe]

Carry optics has become so bastardized at this point I say give them 2011s magwells and small single port comps and just make it open minor.   While they are at it they should lower the PF of major for open to 155.   It’s the shooter not the equipment. I would like to get a honcho and play in Open poor some and be able to (under some safer pressures) be able to run 115s in my limcats for major pf. 

[Boomstick303]

57 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

Hell, do I even believe it deep down myself?

 

Placebo is a real thing.

 

58 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

Part of me is like screw it give me a place to shoot the 2011's TBH.

 

As much as we all know that the gun does not matter its hard to drive an F150 once you have driven an F1 a buddy on this board once said.   Besides there is just something different shooting a 2011.  Its a blast.   

[Boomstick303]

57 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

perhaps because 2011s require more care and feeding to run reliably? how many places is one malfunction going to cost you?

 

I think we all know that part of having a successful match is that you gun runs.  For those I know who know how 2011's work and maintain them, their gun never fails.  Or so rarely I cannot remember them failing.  For those who do not know how to work on their gun or do not maintain them or load ammo that's a different story.  You get out what you put in.  As long as you bought the right gun after doing the appropriate homework.    

 

Weird how the same people seem to have the same problems no matter what gun they run.  

 

Don't get me wrong things can happen to 2011 that are out of the shooters control, especially in open.  Like something breaking during a match.  But, is that not the nature of making big booms in guns that are running on the edge.   Just like race cars. To be honest I do not see many minor 2011s having that many issues in competitions.  

[deerslayer]

52 minutes ago, OpenshooterAclass4lyfe said:

While they are at it they should lower the PF of major for open to 155.   

 

No thanks

[Racinready300ex]

27 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

Placebo is a real thing.

 

 

As much as we all know that the gun does not matter its hard to drive an F150 once you have driven an F1 a buddy on this board once said.   Besides there is just something different shooting a 2011.  Its a blast.   

 

For sure. 

 

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

perhaps because 2011s require more care and feeding to run reliably? how many places is one malfunction going to cost you?

 

I think they can be a little finicky.

 

Personally I've build most of my 2011's. They run really well, and I'm more confident in some of them than I was with my Shadow. 

[motosapiens]

8 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

I think they can be a little finicky.

 

Personally I've build most of my 2011's. They run really well, and I'm more confident in some of them than I was with my Shadow. 

 

agreed that a well-built and maintained 2011 should run pretty darned reliably, but I think they are still more subject to magazine issues than modern guns that were built around shorter oal's. I've yet to figure out a way to get our shadow or legion to nose-dive a round into the feed-ramp.

 

Our limited 2011's also run very well, but only with long ammo, and with meticulously maintained spotlessly clean magazines.

[Bigzona]

Another consideration. What percentage of participants are hobbyist versus national level competitors? As a hobbyist, how much does the joy of shooting a particular type of gun play into it? The 2011 platform has clearly grown in both popularity and reliability. I for one have a collection mostly of this platform before I started to play in USPSA. I was initially frustrated that I could only shoot in open minor with almost no one to compete with. So I built a couple of shadow 2s which I do enjoy. The point is, Mason Lane and even Nils have proven unequivocally what we all know. Its the shooter. Where does it matter most? I'd say for national level competitors. So for the weekend local match hobbyist, I don't see how allowing an increasingly prevalent platform to play in CO. Now that I run the Shadow 2 platform, there is no question that it keeps up with the 2011 given the weight and CGW tuned trigger.

 

Fun discussion....carry on 

[OpenshooterMclass4lyfe]

4 minutes ago, Bigzona said:

Another consideration. What percentage of participants are hobbyist versus national level competitors? As a hobbyist, how much does the joy of shooting a particular type of gun play into it? The 2011 platform has clearly grown in both popularity and reliability. I for one have a collection mostly of this platform before I started to play in USPSA. I was initially frustrated that I could only shoot in open minor with almost no one to compete with. So I built a couple of shadow 2s which I do enjoy. The point is, Mason Lane and even Nils have proven unequivocally what we all know. Its the shooter. Where does it matter most? I'd say for national level competitors. So for the weekend local match hobbyist, I don't see how allowing an increasingly prevalent platform to play in CO. Now that I run the Shadow 2 platform, there is no question that it keeps up with the 2011 given the weight and CGW tuned trigger.

 

Fun discussion....carry on 

I remember lane saying on a podcast about sao in CO that he would switch to one as soon as the rule was changed.   If a national level competitor would switch then there’s obviously some advantages there.   Just saying.  

[RJH]

Just now, OpenshooterAclass4lyfe said:

I remember lane saying on a podcast about sao in CO that he would switch to one as soon as the rule was changed.   If a national level competitor would switch then there’s obviously some advantages there.   Just saying.  

 

And yet he won limited with a plastic 320, so what he did doesn't necessarily equate to what he said it would seem

[motosapiens]

1 minute ago, OpenshooterAclass4lyfe said:

I remember lane saying on a podcast about sao in CO that he would switch to one as soon as the rule was changed.   If a national level competitor would switch then there’s obviously some advantages there.   Just saying.  

I also remember him saying that a flashlight was a total advantage and he was going to put one on his gun...... Did he ever do that?

[RJH]

7 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

agreed that a well-built and maintained 2011 should run pretty darned reliably, but I think they are still more subject to magazine issues than modern guns that were built around shorter oal's. I've yet to figure out a way to get our shadow or legion to nose-dive a round into the feed-ramp.

 

Our limited 2011's also run very well, but only with long ammo, and with meticulously maintained spotlessly clean magazines.

 

This is one of the reasons I've never been able to make myself commit to a 2011. I even shoot a crapper plastic gun in limited simply because it works and I don't have to jack with it. I like to shoot not  fight with guns lol

[CClassForLife]

Change CO to open minor and cap the PF to 145 and max width to 1.5". Potentially ban frame mounted optics as well.

 

This would allow compensators while limiting their effectiveness. Also, the width would limit slide rackers and thumb rests while still allowing palm swell grips.

 

[Racinready300ex]

3 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

And yet he won limited with a plastic 320, so what he did doesn't necessarily equate to what he said it would seem

 

Him doing well with one gun doesn't mean he couldn't do better with another. There is no perfect score in this game, there is always room for improvement. 

 

4 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

I also remember him saying that a flashlight was a total advantage and he was going to put one on his gun...... Did he ever do that?

 

I heard him say this too, and that's what came to mind when I read that. I'm guessing he's not running a light but I don't know. 

[motosapiens]

1 minute ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Him doing well with one gun doesn't mean he couldn't do better with another. There is no perfect score in this game, there is always room for improvement. 

 

 

right, but the point is, he claimed he would run a 2011 in CO if allowed to, but he *is* allowed to run a 2011 in limited and he chooses not to. Is a 2011 more of an advantage in CO than limited? Or is mason just talking smack? (rhetorical question, because I know the answer....)

[motosapiens]

5 minutes ago, CClassForLife said:

Change CO to open minor and cap the PF to 145 and max width to 1.5". Potentially ban frame mounted optics as well.

 

This would allow compensators while limiting their effectiveness. Also, the width would limit slide rackers and thumb rests while still allowing palm swell grips.

 

 

There have been alot of terrible ideas in this thread, but this is one of the MOST terrible. Comps and ported barrels have been around for a long time, and very very few people use them for carry guns. Not sure if it's because they are completely unnecessary or if it's because they are disturbingly loud, but either way it's something we don't need and which would make the sport worse and less practical.

 

We already have a sensible ruleset that obviously works and everyone except a few malcontents likes. I suggest we just not f*** with it for a while.

[Boomstick303]

I think the rules need to be addressed due to the evolution of firearms, and which seems to be speeding up.  Not slowing down.  Take for instance the new Sig guns with built in comps.   People will be buying them, and Yes to carry them.  Thus, people will be showing up to matches with them.  So we just keeping ignoring the evolution of firearms and optics, or do we create a rule set that incorporate the current, new and future firearms?

 

If not I agree, just them alone for awhile.  No more patches.  Either overhaul the whole thing or just leave them alone.  

[Racinready300ex]

4 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

right, but the point is, he claimed he would run a 2011 in CO if allowed to, but he *is* allowed to run a 2011 in limited and he chooses not to. Is a 2011 more of an advantage in CO than limited? Or is mason just talking smack? (rhetorical question, because I know the answer....)

 

 

That doesn't really change the point of my post you quoted. You can win, and still have the potential to do better. Or do we think his match would of went exactly the same no matter what gun was in his hand? 

 

I personally don't believe he'd switch to a 2011 in CO if they were allowed. He just doesn't want them allowed. We can speculate his reason. Does he not want to shoot against 2011's because he does think it's a advantage? Maybe. Does he just want to help his sponsors sell more Sigs? Maybe he wants drama. Lots of potential motivations. I still stay probably not best to base the divisions on the Pro's, no matter which side they're on. 

 

[motosapiens]

Just now, Racinready300ex said:

 

I personally don't believe he'd switch to a 2011 in CO if they were allowed. He just doesn't want them allowed. 

 

 

That is also my belief. I also don't want 2011's allowed, and I also would not switch if they were allowed. I just don't want to do anything that Staccato, Infinity and Atlas want to do.

[Racinready300ex]

1 minute ago, Boomstick303 said:

I think the rules need to be addressed due to the evolution of firearms, and which seems to be speeding up.  Not slowing down.  Take for instance the new Sig guns with built in comps.   People will be buying them, and Yes to carry them.  Thus, people will be showing up to matches with them.  So we just keeping ignoring the evolution of firearms and optics, or do we create a rule set that incorporate the current, new and future firearms?

 

If not I agree, just them alone for awhile.  No more patches.  Either overhaul the whole thing or just leave them alone.  

 

If those catch on I'd assume that's what we'll be debating once we have this new SAO-CO division. I think it's a interesting idea, I really want to shoot one. I'm not completely sure I want to carry a comped gun or not at this point. 

[CC3D]

4 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

We already have a sensible ruleset that obviously works and everyone except a few malcontents likes. I suggest we just not f*** with it for a while.

 

Please. 

 

In reality there is a very small minority of people who have 9mm 2011's with a slide ride optic that want to shoot it in USPSA. We dont need to go changing our entire rule set so that small number of people can play in CO instead of open. Not to mention we'd be creating a huge **perceived** gear race in the process. 

[Racinready300ex]

Just now, motosapiens said:

 

That is also my belief. I also don't want 2011's allowed, and I also would not switch if they were allowed. I just don't want to do anything that Staccato, Infinity and Atlas want to do.

 

I probably wouldn't switch completely if allowed. I've got a P01 I carry, I'm going to start shooting that in CO. If the match was big enough and I really wanted to put my best foot forward I might bust out a 2011 for a few months leading up to the match because I'd do better with it vs a basically stock compact CZ. 

 

Last match I shot a 365xl in CO. It was a lot of fun. But, as well as I did I was not going to win that match with that gun. 

[Boomstick303]

3 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

Last match I shot a 365xl in CO. It was a lot of fun. But, as well as I did I was not going to win that match with that gun. 

 

What's the matter?  You could not channel your inner @CClassForLife???????

[CClassForLife]

3 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

There have been alot of terrible ideas in this thread, but this is one of the MOST terrible. Comps and ported barrels have been around for a long time, and very very few people use them for carry guns. Not sure if it's because they are completely unnecessary or if it's because they are disturbingly loud, but either way it's something we don't need and which would make the sport worse and less practical.

 

We already have a sensible ruleset that obviously works and everyone except a few malcontents likes. I suggest we just not f*** with it for a while.

 

This whole thread is about changing an already sensible ruleset. If more people started carrying compensated guns, then does it warrant consideration? If so, when does popularity/adoption overcome the "disturbingly loud" aspect? Heck, more people probably carry a compensated gun than a S2, so I don't think that's a sound argument.

 

Correct me if I interpreted you incorrectly. The sport does not need compensators and will make the sport worse and less practical because (1) they have been around for a long time and are unnecessary or (2) they are disturbingly loud. For (1), does this change with changing times? If there's a resurgence in popularity (e.g. 2011 platform) and compensators are trending towards perceived practicality, doesn't this refute the first argument? For (2), a PF ceiling would limit this. How much I dunno, but it won't nearly be as concussive as an open major gun.

 

Personally, I'm with you to just leave it alone. But it seems like these threads are popular because there's some inkling of "I don't think the results would change, but I don't want to change the rules just for change sake."

[vluc]

35 minutes ago, CC3D said:

 

Please. 

 

In reality there is a very small minority of people who have 9mm 2011's with a slide ride optic that want to shoot it in USPSA. We dont need to go changing our entire rule set so that small number of people can play in CO instead of open.

 Seems that was exactly what was done with lights, weights and thumb rests.

[Bigzona]

I often enjoy the hypotheticals when it comes to the ruleset. However, I do have a genuine curiosity that I still don't understand. What is the basis for the concern people have about an ever evolving rule set to allow different action types (within reason) to various divisions based on evolving technology or popularity? Do we really believe the dedicated shooter (hobbyist, national level competitor, or otherwise) would be any less successful versus an undedicated shooter with a certain platform (sao in this case)?

 

Our newly crowned CO National Champion just did it with a plastic Canik. The same shooter nearly won limited nationals a year or two ago with a plastic minor pistol. My point is, the guys dedicating a lot of time to the craft will always beat out the ones that aren't.

 

I suppose one can then argue that if you have two dedicated shooters, the one with SAO would have an advantage.....I guess. So we can pretend stage planning/execution, the mental game/fortitude, and so much more are non-factors.

 

This is why I enjoy the hypotheticals and don't take it too seriously. Top performers in whatever endeavor have always been and will always be top performers because of software and not hardware....rules be damned....

 

carry on