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23+1 wont run


Racinready300ex
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I've got a legion with the lighter of the factory springs. With 23 they gun (21 body, TTI pad, grams spring and follower) doesn't seem to be able to cycle. 22 it's good to go. I just choro'd my load, it's right at 125 PF with 115's. I'm going to bump it up closer to 130 and see if it runs then. But, I'm wondering if I should run a lighter spring. 

 

Anybody had a similar issue? What recoil springs are you running?

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125PF loads have a funny way of not making chrono and going sub minor at a major. Most people load around 128-132. The difference is usually noticeable shooting slow fire and comparing the rounds side by side, but you won't notice the difference shooting at match pace.  You'll certainly notice it if you fail chrono and have to shoot a major for no score.

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12 minutes ago, ClangClang said:

125PF loads have a funny way of not making chrono and going sub minor at a major. Most people load around 128-132. The difference is usually noticeable shooting slow fire and comparing the rounds side by side, but you won't notice the difference shooting at match pace.  You'll certainly notice it if you fail chrono and have to shoot a major for no score.

 

Yeah I don't plan on going to majors with this load I'm still figuring things out. I've already bumped it up from 4 to 4.2 gr. of powder but haven't got to shoot them yet. I may even go with heavier bullets for majors, because I feel like they do better on steel.

 

The real question is, the the feeding likely just because my current load is just to light? Or my recoil spring is to heavy? A little of both? Or are you better off just running 22 in the mag. I'm thinking that if a few tenths of a grain of powder is the difference between working and not working that's not good enough. 

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5 minutes ago, TrackCage said:

Once the mag spring wears a little, you'll be fine.

 

I have had this happen on a couple of glock mags when the extensions were brand new. I just ran them at 22 rds a couple dozen times and the problem went away.

 

That's what I was hoping. 

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Ok, I only go to the line with 22+1 for the sake of reliability.  In all seriousness, is that extra round really needed?  Are you whiffing on steel?  If you are going anywhere near 1 for 1 on steal and have a decent stage plan on a medium to long field course you will have a reasonable point to reload in the first 22 rounds.  Is there a possibility of a unique stage that REALLY rewards 23 rounds?  Sure, but it is the exception rather than the rule.  

 

Store your mags with 23 rounds for a while and see if they get more reliable with 23+1

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Look at the bottom of the slide.  There's a ramp near the front of the rib that runs down the center just before the breechface.  So even though you can get the mag seated when loaded to 23, as the slide retracts, the ramp has to push the top round down further into the mag.  If there isn't enough free space in the mag, it will create a ton of mechanical resistance as the slide starts to travel rearward since the mag spring is bottomed out.  You'll probably notice a huge difference in effort when retracting a closed slide on 23 vs 22 rounds.  A lighter recoil spring won't help much in this case.  Most striker fired guns have this ramp while I've never seen one on a hammer-fired gun.  I think the ramp uses the pressure from compressing the top round to slow the slide down a bit since there's no hammer to provide the same resistance early in the slide stroke.  

Fortunately, as you use the magazine, the springs should settle a bit.  So instead of stacking perfectly on top of each other, they shift around a bit and open up a little more space for the spring to compress.

I've heard some guys can load 24 rounds into their XDM mags, but I think the 5.25" XDMs don't have a ramp on the center rib.

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1 hour ago, zhunter said:

Ok, I only go to the line with 22+1 for the sake of reliability.  In all seriousness, is that extra round really needed?  Are you whiffing on steel?  If you are going anywhere near 1 for 1 on steal and have a decent stage plan on a medium to long field course you will have a reasonable point to reload in the first 22 rounds.  Is there a possibility of a unique stage that REALLY rewards 23 rounds?  Sure, but it is the exception rather than the rule.  

 

Store your mags with 23 rounds for a while and see if they get more reliable with 23+1

 

You never know, I like to have options. 

 

For example I shot the GFDS postal match stages the other day. Stage "It's not Gay if it's JJ" is 21 rounds with 3 steel and a tight headshot in the back. Not really any movement in the stage to hide a reload. I'd prefer to start at 24 rounds just in case, even though I only needed 22. Having the option in your bag of tricks and knowing when it might come to play can save your ass. And that one time it does could mean the match.

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20 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

You never know, I like to have options. 

 

For example I shot the GFDS postal match stages the other day. Stage "It's not Gay if it's JJ" is 21 rounds with 3 steel and a tight headshot in the back. Not really any movement in the stage to hide a reload. I'd prefer to start at 24 rounds just in case, even though I only needed 22. Having the option in your bag of tricks and knowing when it might come to play can save your ass. And that one time it does could mean the match.

As I said, it is a possible scenario, just not very likely in the realm of statistics and problability

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28 minutes ago, Lowsc3 said:

I run 22 for easier reloads and at 23 since there is little to no give on the mag you can easily bend the ejector. Just my 2 cents

 

The only time I would likely do it is at the start of a stage. Typically what I would do it limited was go to the line with two 21 round mags. Insert mag one chamber a round put it back on my belt in first pouch. Then take second 21 round mag and insert it into gun. Now I have 22 in the gun and a mag of 20 that is "easy" to seat on my belt. This would be the same concept, just with more ammo because of 9mm

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7 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

The only time I would likely do it is at the start of a stage. Typically what I would do it limited was go to the line with two 21 round mags. Insert mag one chamber a round put it back on my belt in first pouch. Then take second 21 round mag and insert it into gun. Now I have 22 in the gun and a mag of 20 that is "easy" to seat on my belt. This would be the same concept, just with more ammo because of 9mm

 

Same here. Going for a reload and it falls back out when you get the gun on target cause you didn't get it seated due to being so tight with that extra round makes for a really bad stage. 

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Just because a gun will hold 23+1 does not make doing so a good idea.  We always talk about reliability etc.....

 

With the right mag (21), base pad (TTI, Henning, Springer take your pick) and the correct guts (Grams) you can ALWAYS get a reliable 22+1 for a start or a reload.

 

Take chances and sometimes you get unhappy consequences.... Gamble as you may

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7 minutes ago, zhunter said:

Just because a gun will hold 23+1 does not make doing so a good idea.  We always talk about reliability etc.....

 

With the right mag (21), base pad (TTI, Henning, Springer take your pick) and the correct guts (Grams) you can ALWAYS get a reliable 22+1 for a start or a reload.

 

Take chances and sometimes you get unhappy consequences.... Gamble as you may

 

I agree, reliability is key, and if the gun can't run, it's useless. Right now I'm running it 22+1. But I was hoping to find out if anyone has gotten 23+1 to work reliably and what they did. I know one local who said he had to go down to a 11 lbs variable 1911 recoil spring to get his running. His runs and is reliable, but that's just one gun. 

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48 minutes ago, Matt1911 said:

 

Same here. Going for a reload and it falls back out when you get the gun on target cause you didn't get it seated due to being so tight with that extra round makes for a really bad stage. 

How much hit factor do you think that extra round costs? 

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3 minutes ago, GrumpyOne said:

Or more...if you had to bend down and pick it up to try and use it....

 

eww yeah don't do that, as soon as it starts to fall you should be getting the next mag on the belt.

 

I had that happen on a stage a couple years back, I can't remember if it was a unloaded start or if I just didn't seat the mag during LMR.  but I noticed it falling before I fired the first shot and had the next mag off my belt before the original one hit the dirt. Probably didn't cost me much, but it was enough to make me feel like I was way behind on the stage right out of the gate. 

 

3 minutes ago, TrackCage said:

That's just bad planning. If I expect to use two mags on a stage, I'm coming to the line with four.

 

I don't go that far, but I even in hi-cap divisions I always have one more then I need. So a one reload stage I have two on the belt.

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1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

You never know, I like to have options. 

 

For example I shot the GFDS postal match stages the other day. Stage "It's not Gay if it's JJ" is 21 rounds with 3 steel and a tight headshot in the back. Not really any movement in the stage to hide a reload. I'd prefer to start at 24 rounds just in case, even though I only needed 22. Having the option in your bag of tricks and knowing when it might come to play can save your ass. And that one time it does could mean the match.

 

My thinking is I would just plan a reload anyway, and practice reloads so they don't take any actual time. I find that having to be concerned about how many make-up shots I have slows me down way more than a reload.

 

If I could get 23 without any issues whatsoever, I would probably do it, but with 22 I know the gun works, I can reload easily to 22, etc... And I practice reloads so that even a 2step movement is enough to reload without significant time loss. (fwiw, I only load to 20 in limited as well, for the same reasons).

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Just now, motosapiens said:

 

My thinking is I would just plan a reload anyway, and practice reloads so they don't take any actual time. I find that having to be concerned about how many make-up shots I have slows me down way more than a reload.

 

If I could get 23 without any issues whatsoever, I would probably do it, but with 22 I know the gun works, I can reload easily to 22, etc... And I practice reloads so that even a 2step movement is enough to reload without significant time loss. (fwiw, I only load to 20 in limited as well, for the same reasons).

 

No such thing as a reload that doesn't take actual time. You can get it down so it's small but on a stage where you can keep the gun up the whole time shooting even if you nail that sub 1 second reload in one step you're still behind the curve just a little. 

 

I'd bet the guy that wins that stage doesn't do a reload. 

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54 minutes ago, TrackCage said:

That's just bad planning. If I expect to use two mags on a stage, I'm coming to the line with four.

 

Absolutely. I always have at least 1 more mag than I think I'll need. 

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I just added Grams springs and followers to my mags with TTI base pads. One holds 23 comfortably and one is a bit tight.

 

Today I live fire tested starting and reloading 23 +1 a couple of times and they ran fine. I do use the heavier recoil spring ( 14,15lb?) and 130pf ammo.

 

I will do more testing before considering using in a match. However, More important is

Lowsc3 bringing up that it may "easily bend the ejector". Yes, that's a hugh concern I didn't consider.

 

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