Splatter hits no shoot

[GJM]

At a match now. My shot edged the steel, and splitter hit the no shoot behind. No grease ring on no shoot.

 

penalty for no shoot or not?

[shooting for M]

It's a no-shoot according to how I understand your description and how I read the rules.

 

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[IVC]

Splatter is part of the jacket or bullet and doesn't count per rule 9.5.5. If the bullet itself was a partial hit and continued down range, then rule 9.1.5.3 says it counts for the penalty. The question here is "what hit the no-shoot?" 

 

A partial hit on metal target is similar to hitting the outside perforation on D zone, where part of the bullet counts for score on the target, but the other part allows it to count down range for score or penalty. It's also how shots on perforation of no-shoots count for targets beyond. The trick with metal targets is to determine what really happened - a full hit, a partial hit, was it the bullet or splatter. 

[perttime]

Yep. What hit the no-shoot?

 

Half a bullet, or shreds of a disintegrated bullet?

[NickBlasta]

2 hours ago, IVC said:

Splatter is part of the jacket or bullet and doesn't count per rule 9.5.5. If the bullet itself was a partial hit and continued down range, then rule 9.1.5.3 says it counts for the penalty. The question here is "what hit the no-shoot?" 

 

A partial hit on metal target is similar to hitting the outside perforation on D zone, where part of the bullet counts for score on the target, but the other part allows it to count down range for score or penalty. It's also how shots on perforation of no-shoots count for targets beyond. The trick with metal targets is to determine what really happened - a full hit, a partial hit, was it the bullet or splatter. 

 

Technically 9.5.5 only counts if it exceeds your bullet diameter...

 

How I've seen the RMs score it at majors is that if you have a hit that's partial on steel, and then anything at all that resembles a bullet, or a piece of a bullet (including any kind of semi-conical radius, or any piece of lead that leaves grease on the paper), in the NS, you get the NS. If it looks clearly like just a piece of jacket (a sliver, or a mere tear) you do not get the NS.

[GJM]

At the end of the match, I pulled the tape and took this picture of the no shoot.

[NickBlasta]

Looks a lot like a sideways bullet having tumbled after hitting the steel. I would say the call is legit.

[bret]

3 hours ago, GJM said:

At the end of the match, I pulled the tape and took this picture of the no shoot.

That isn't a hit,  that would be scored as a Mike on a regular target.

[yukonjon]

Looks a lot like a sideways bullet having tumbled after hitting the steel. I would say the call is legit.

I would agree.

How far back was the no shoot and was it directly behind the target or to the side.

[RAP]

From the picture it looks like a legitimate call. The area marked in red is what I’m basing this on.



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[GJM]

I was genuinely confused, and I suspect it is unclear for many. The RO on my squad, called it a no shoot. The three RO’s on the other squad said they would not call it a no shoot. I texted TGO, and he was unsure. The funny thing is the same RO who made the call yesterday, called an identical looking hit on a scoring target as a miss. 

[Joe4d]

u cant take little tidbits out of context,, might be a miss might be a hit, Have to take entire stage layout in account. No 2 are the same.
If from where you took the shot at the steel, I can look and see a straight line to the no shoot if u clip the edge of the steel, Its a No shoot penalty... Could have had a steel down range of a no shoot thats off to the side as well,,,,  splatter might make same hole..
You have to look at all the evidence and score it.

[MadBomber]

As an RO, I would not have called that a hit on NS.  Looks more like a round that skipped off the ground.  No way does it look like a regular bullet hole.

[Sarge]

5 hours ago, Joe4d said:

u cant take little tidbits out of context,, might be a miss might be a hit, Have to take entire stage layout in account. No 2 are the same.
If from where you took the shot at the steel, I can look and see a straight line to the no shoot if u clip the edge of the steel, Its a No shoot penalty... Could have had a steel down range of a no shoot thats off to the side as well,,,,  splatter might make same hole..
You have to look at all the evidence and score it.

agreed. I'd call this a no shoot based on what we see here.

[Schutzenmeister]

I'd call this a wonderful example of why photographic evidence is prohibited under the rules ...

[bret]

9.5.5  Enlarged holes in cardboard targets which exceed the competitor’s bullet diameter will not count for score or penalty unless there is visible evidence within the remnants of the hole (e.g. a grease mark or a “crown” etc.), to eliminate a presumption that the hole was caused by a ricochet or splatter.


I don't see a crown or a grease ring or any part of a crown or grease ring.

There is an enlarged hole in the no shoot, could have ricocheted off the steel.

IMO that is not a hit that would be scored for score or penalty, the big hole looks like a ricochet, the upper smaller piece is splatter.

[IVC]

4 hours ago, bret said:

I don't see a crown or a grease ring or any part of a crown or grease ring.

There is an enlarged hole in the no shoot, could have ricocheted off the steel.

Two problems: First, grease mark is just an example of what would be sufficient ("e.g." in brackets), and second, this was not a ricochet, but a partial hit with the bullet traveling down range after the hit. 

 

If this is was a FULL hit on the metal target, then 9.5.5 would say the rest doesn't count and it's NOT a no-shoot penalty. The fact that it was a PARTIAL hit on the metal target changes scoring quite a bit because such a bullet is explicitly allowed to score or incur a penalty down range. 

[IVC]

Based on the picture, I'd definitely call it a no-shoot. The only way to say it wasn't a no-shoot is to claim that it was splatter, or ricochet from some OTHER steel target where it was a FULL hit on the steel. If we agree that the hole was made by a "whatever part" of the bullet that was a PARTIAL hit on steel, that hole counts as a no-shoot.

 

As for not counting similar holes for score for some other shooters, my guess would be that they hit the steel properly, so it wasn't a partial hit, so it doesn't count down range.