extra hit penalty on separated targets, virginia count stage

[obsessiveshooter]

Here's a hypothetical that simplifies and makes clear a question I have, based on a stage I shot in a recent match, where I was given an procedural I didn't agree with but wasn't willing to push on.

 

Virginia count stage with two targets, each on their own stands and separated by a several feet but presented so the transition between them is extremely small.  All shooting is from 3'x3' Box A.  If a D zone hit on the closest target also breaks the perimeter perf, and proceeds to make a hole in the second target, how do you score/penalize that second hole?  

 

I was given an extra hit penalty, and I thought it wasn't right but couldn't think of exactly why.  Normally that extra hit penalty would be on stacked targets attached to each other on the same target stand, not on what i would consider a shoot-through. Of course the stage shouldn't have a allowed for a shoot-through, but in this case it did.  If it were a important match, how would you argue against the penalty on exactly what grounds?  Or am I wrong and it was scored correctly?   

[obsessiveshooter]

A detail that might be important here:  If that D hit hadn't broken the perf, it still would have passed through the other target.  

[IVC]

It was a correct call. Rule 9.1.5.3 says that the extra hit will count for score or penalty. If the shot didn’t hit the perf, rule 9.1.5.1 says it wouldn’t have counted. 
 

Similar to how a no-shoot hits are handled when hitting the perf. 

[Joe4d]

Look at it this way,,, if it wasnt an extra hit, you would expect the first target to score as it broke line, but aslo expect second target to count as it wasnt a full diameter hit on the front target.

[bret]

In virginia count if the target is only supposed to get 2 hits and when it is being scored there are 3 hits on it, you get an extra hit on that target, even if you fired the appropriate number of rounds.

 

Extra shots are counted at the time of shooting,  extra shots are counted at the targets.

 

I had a 2 string stage yesterday, fire 2 shots in box a reload shoot strong hand only in box b.

 

Then shoot 2 shots each box b reload shoot weak hand only box c.

 

After the first string I noticed a Mike on a target so in the freestyle part in box b I put 3 shots on t4 and 2 on t5 and t6, then finished the stage.

 

R.O. saw 4 Alpha's 1 hard cover hit and was confused at what happened,  he obviously wasn't counting shots fired as he should have.

 

Then wanted to give me extra Hit,  I said no, a mike is not an extra hit, then the other r.o. wanted to give me a procedural for stacking, I said no it wasn't stacking, then they decided it was an extra shot fired even though they didn't count the shots fired.

 

In virginia count the range officers have to count shots fired, as well as shots fired in single stack,  production and revolver major.

[obsessiveshooter]

I understand how to score targets that are overlaid. But it seems like the fact that the targets are not touching each other would be significant. Here is the actual stage. The D hit was on T4 and passed through into T3.

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[PatJones]

Overlaid or not, that targets are scored the same.

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[obsessiveshooter]

If it's that simple, then it's good to know for next time I encounter this scenario.

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[bret]

3 hours ago, obsessiveshooter said:

I understand how to score targets that are overlaid. But it seems like the fact that the targets are not touching each other would be significant. Here is the actual stage. The D hit was on T4 and passed through into T3.

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How many shots on this stage? 

 

What did the wsb say about how it was to be shot?

[Ssanders224]

As an aside...

Was the stage just poorly setup/designed? On a little stage like that, shoot through's should have been easy to identify during setup. 

[obsessiveshooter]

Bret,
T1 2 shots, t2 & t3 3 shots each, mandatory reload, t4 & t5 4 shots each, mandatory reload, t6&t7 3 shots each, t8 2 shots.

Who knows, maybe a target was bumped over. If I had stood in the middle or back of the box, it wouldn't have been a problem. A smarter shooter on my squad saw the potential and said he stood back for that very reason.

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[broadside72]

8 minutes ago, obsessiveshooter said:

Bret,
T1 2 shots, t2 & t3 3 shots each, mandatory reload, t4 & t5 4 shots each, mandatory reload, t6&t7 3 shots each, t8 2 shots.

Who knows, maybe a target was bumped over. If I had stood in the middle or back of the box, it wouldn't have been a problem. A smarter shooter on my squad saw the potential and said he stood back for that very reason.
 

 

Illegal stage. Notice the "must" in 2.1.8.

 

2.1.8 Target Placement – Care must be taken with the physical placement of a cardboard target to prevent a “shoot through”.

 

That is why you use witness marks in case it was bumped. Correct it and reshoot per 4.6.1 or have it thrown out. 

[bret]

9 minutes ago, obsessiveshooter said:

Bret,
T1 2 shots, t2 & t3 3 shots each, mandatory reload, t4 & t5 4 shots each, mandatory reload, t6&t7 3 shots each, t8 2 shots.

Who knows, maybe a target was bumped over. If I had stood in the middle or back of the box, it wouldn't have been a problem. A smarter shooter on my squad saw the potential and said he stood back for that very reason.

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All one string? 

 

26 shots total? 

[Thomas H]

1 minute ago, broadside72 said:

 

Illegal stage. Notice the "must" in 2.1.8.

 

2.1.8 Target Placement – Care must be taken with the physical placement of a cardboard target to prevent a “shoot through”.

 

That is why you use witness marks in case it was bumped. Correct it and reshoot per 4.6.1 or have it thrown out. 

 

 

Given the stage procedure as currently written, it is an illegal stage for a number of reasons. 

 

[bret]

Just now, Thomas H said:

 

 

Given the stage procedure as currently written, it is an illegal stage for a number of reasons. 

 

Virginia count is only for short courses,  classifiers or standards.

 

No more than 8 shots per view.

 

All shots can't be taken from 1 location when more than 8 shots on the stage.

 

This was a stupid stage.

 

 

[facedown]

Not to mention that you can't mandate reloads on a long course even at a club match.

[Southpaw]

Scored correctly. Bad stage set-up. And yeah sounds like illegal stage for multiple reasons.

[obsessiveshooter]

Honestly, it was kind of fun, since most stages in that narrow bay are lower round count. I was bummed about the penalty, because it kept me from breaking a 12HF, which I would have been proud of.


Big question in my mind, is this: Could you design a Virginia count stage laid out sort of like this where you use hardcover on some targets to lure Shooters into shooting faster, hitting the hardcover and getting a Mike and an extra shot penalty on the shoot through target a few yards behind, and still have the stage be legal?

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[Southpaw]

I'm not certain what you're asking now, but you should never intentionally design a stage with shoot throughs. And if you hit entirely in the hard cover area of a target it doesn't count if it hits another target behind it.

[bret]

24 minutes ago, obsessiveshooter said:

Honestly, it was kind of fun, since most stages in that narrow bay are lower round count. I was bummed about the penalty, because it kept me from breaking a 12HF, which I would have been proud of.


Big question in my mind, is this: Could you design a Virginia count stage laid out sort of like this where you use hardcover on some targets to lure Shooters into shooting faster, hitting the hardcover and getting a Mike and an extra shot penalty on the shoot through target a few yards behind, and still have the stage be legal?

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Targets are impenetrable, so a shot through hard cover into another target would not count as a score or a penalty. 

 

Virginia count can't be used on anything but short courses (12 rounds) classifiers or Standards.

 

You can't have more than 8 shots per view or be able to take all shots from one location on medium and long course.

 

 

[nasty618]

42 minutes ago, obsessiveshooter said:

Big question in my mind, is this: Could you design a Virginia count stage laid out sort of like this where you use hardcover on some targets to lure Shooters into shooting faster, hitting the hardcover and getting a Mike and an extra shot penalty on the shoot through target a few yards behind, and still have the stage be legal?

 

You 'could' design a stage with barrels obstructing a target(s) from view and forcing the shooter to move to another shooting position (at considerable distance) in order to see that target clearly. You could then declare barrels to be soft cover in WSB, letting shooters gamble and shoot through barrels in order to hit the target behind them and save time.  Maybe make it a partial or a tuxedo target if the "risk vs reward" ratio is not appropriate.

Edited January 6, 2020 by nasty618

[ima45dv8]

8 minutes ago, nasty618 said:

You 'could' design a stage with barrels obstructing a target(s) from view and forcing the shooter to move to another shooting position (at considerable distance) in order to see that target clearly. You could then declare barrels to be soft cover in WSB, letting shooters gamble and shoot through barrels in order to hit the target behind them and save time. Maybe make it a partial or a tuxedo target if the "risk vs reward" ratio is not appropriate.

Can't really do this.

 

excerpt from 4.1.4.2:     All scoring zones on targets hidden by soft cover must be left wholly intact.

[broadside72]

If there are no more than 8 targets you could make that a legal stage with Virginia scoring. It fits in the "speed shoot" course type, just mandate a reload. For instance, shoot T1-T8 with one round each, perform mandatory reload, then shoot T1-T8 with one round each. All from one location. Legal stage. 

[nasty618]

16 minutes ago, ima45dv8 said:

4.1.4.2:     All scoring zones on targets hidden by soft cover must be left wholly intact

 

Ah good catch. Is that true even if the (tux) target is wholly available from another position?

[IVC]

1 hour ago, broadside72 said:

Illegal stage. Notice the "must" in 2.1.8.

 

2.1.8 Target Placement – Care must be taken with the physical placement of a cardboard target to prevent a “shoot through”.

No, the word "must" applies to "care," not to the stage setup. It doesn't say that "shoot through must not happen." Besides, there is a specific rule for scoring shoot through, which wouldn't exist if it was illegal for a stage:

 

9.1.5.3 If a bullet strikes partially within the scoring area of a cardboard or metal target and continues on to strike the scoring area of another cardboard target, the hit on the subsequent cardboard target will also count for score or penalty, as the case may be.