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a matt

Reshoot question steel issue.

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3 mini and 3 reg poppers, mini lined up behind the larger peppers on part of a med to long course.  Shooter shoots 10 total rounds at the 6 poppers and 6 hits ring out. After the ULSC shooter tells the RO one of the mini poppers was already down. 3RO’s and one is a CRO but after 2 RO’s said they did NOT see the steel issue. What happens? Reshoot or because none of these RO’s saw the steel down, should the score and time stand?  

Important EDIT; one of the RO’s said he did see it but not until the shooter was shooting at it. Does an RO  need to wait until after the shooter said the steel was down or does the RO need to call out the fallen steel issue as soon as the RO saw it?  It didn’t look like thr RO was going to say anything until he heard what the shooter was saying and then of course he saw it when it was being shot at. 2 or 3 more shots to put the last of the steel down and the shooter still needed to finish on 2 paper target to end the stage.  STOP was never said only Reshoot after the RO that was the farthest away walked up and said I noticed it when he was shooting at it. 

Edited by a matt

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I am thinking scored as shot, if the ros didn't see the steel down, I don't think they're going to take the shooters word for it, even if the shooter is telling the truth

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I watch it again and one RO's from somewhere said he saw it, when the shooter was shooting  It’s.  The shooter has a great chance of winning (good guy) but this is at the Nationals, why didn’t this RO that saw it say STOP.   I can’t see this going the same for me. 😂😂

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I don’t know the details of the specific incident being discussed, but as an RO, if I see a steel down that I know you haven’t shot, or see a steel fall due to wind or whatever, the next word you hear will be STOP. 

 

If I can’t tell (let’s say you’re shooting an array of a bunch of steel close together and the wind picks up while you’re firing at least the right number of shots), then I’m going to look for evidence of hits on all the steel. If one is missing a hit, then you’re going to have to reshoot because clearly it fell over without being hit.

 

If we’re at a local and not painting after every shooter, then I can’t be sure and will probably score as s#!t unless someone suggests that something abnormal happened. And then I’m going to ask the squad to start painting after every shooter. 

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On 9/26/2019 at 10:01 PM, a matt said:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/31472669314/wp/404263823492875/?ext=1569817088&hash=AeTUj3gcLs9f8K4A

 

7 minute 6 sec is the start of the run. If this link works.  If not it’s on FB of the ‘19 USPSA Limited Nats live feed...

 

Thanks gents

It also happened many times on that stage during open/pcc.

Edited by echotango

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Range Equipment Failure, reshoot. 

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If the RO said it was down before being shot its an REF,,,, If I was CRO, I would have either seen it with my own eyes and ordered the reshoot,  Or seen it was up and not ordered the reshoot.
If I saw neither I would back my RO and ask if he was sure,,, then rule based on what he saw.
Its not necessarry to say stop, as a RO my primary job is to keep things safe,, sometimes these guys are moving... More than once I have had to hush a shooter and the peanut gallery, ,, Give and enforce the ULSC command,,
I mean sometime guy wants to start fussing about a REF before,,, Nope not doing it. I repeat IYAD  ULSC,,, ICHDH,   Range is safe....  Then,,, inform shooter they have to reshoot, or listen to what they say and ask my other RO's  Whether I stopped them, or the shooter has got to end of COF, not discussing anything till range is safe.
That being said,  I shot nationals with a Texas star. NOT 1 single shooter on my squad was scored correctly including myself. Why I think they should be illegal targets. Kinda a let down as I figured Nationals would be straight and narrow on the rules. From personal experience and from what I have seen elsewhere that isnt the case.

Edited by Joe4d

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7 hours ago, Joe4d said:

If the RO said it was down before being shot its an REF,,,, If I was CRO, I would have either seen it with my own eyes and ordered the reshoot,  Or seen it was up and not ordered the reshoot.
If I saw neither I would back my RO and ask if he was sure,,, then rule based on what he saw.
Its not necessarry to say stop, as a RO my primary job is to keep things safe,, sometimes these guys are moving... More than once I have had to hush a shooter and the peanut gallery, ,, Give and enforce the ULSC command,,
I mean sometime guy wants to start fussing about a REF before,,, Nope not doing it. I repeat IYAD  ULSC,,, ICHDH,   Range is safe....  Then,,, inform shooter they have to reshoot, or listen to what they say and ask my other RO's  Whether I stopped them, or the shooter has got to end of COF, not discussing anything till range is safe.
That being said,  I shot nationals with a Texas star. NOT 1 single shooter on my squad was scored correctly including myself. Why I think they should be illegal targets. Kinda a let down as I figured Nationals would be straight and narrow on the rules. From personal experience and from what I have seen elsewhere that isnt the case.

What do you mean you don’t have to call stop? If an RO sees steel down prior to being shot he must call stop. What if it’s a 32 round COF and you notice it within the first few seconds? You certainly won’t let the guy waste 32 rounds right?

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47 minutes ago, Sarge said:

What do you mean you don’t have to call stop? If an RO sees steel down prior to being shot he must call stop. What if it’s a 32 round COF and you notice it within the first few seconds? You certainly won’t let the guy waste 32 rounds right?

I had that issue on a tx star. Starting of the stage was a star and 1 fell off. Waited till I finished the 32 rnd stage to tell me reshoot. I was pissed. 

Edited by echotango

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58 minutes ago, echotango said:

. Waited till I finished the 32 rnd stage to tell me reshoot. I was pissed. 

And rightly so!

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 So the CRO should have walked down and looked for hits on all that steel,  just to make sure everyone saw what they think they had. It was been painted after each shooter.

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depends on situations, sure if you can say stop say stop, then ULSC,, but as mentioned, some times these guys are smoking fast,, and from time you see REF till the time your brain can get stop out of your mouth they have already fired last shot. At which point You could go IYAD ULSC,,, or Stop ULSC,, ( even thought they have already stopped) either would be fine IMO.
What my point was,, I wouldnt argue or discuss a REF or reshoot until range was safe.

20 hours ago, Sarge said:

What do you mean you don’t have to call stop? If an RO sees steel down prior to being shot he must call stop. What if it’s a 32 round COF and you notice it within the first few seconds? You certainly won’t let the guy waste 32 rounds right?


Come on now, give me some credit, wouldnt have let someone continue to run around the stage knowing it was an REF.

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21 hours ago, Sarge said:

What do you mean you don’t have to call stop? If an RO sees steel down prior to being shot he must call stop. What if it’s a 32 round COF and you notice it within the first few seconds? You certainly won’t let the guy waste 32 rounds right?

As soon as you discover a problem and you know the steel wasn’t up or I have seen were a bigger pops falls and hits ground and causes nearby popper to fall, stop shooter. I wouldn’t want to waste ammo and I wouldn’t want to give shooter a practice run on rest of stage either. 

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Even more reason steel should be painted after every shooter, regardless of the match size or level. If one can of paint per 25 shooters is too much of an expense for a match then there’s much bigger problems going on here. 

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1 hour ago, ampleworks said:

Even more reason steel should be painted after every shooter, regardless of the match size or level. If one can of paint per 25 shooters is too much of an expense for a match then there’s much bigger problems going on here. 

 But now you’d be asking shooters to paint the steel that they haven’t even touched all day. That’s a whole BIG ASS can of worms around here.

Start a post titled “you’re a sorry ass shooter/sportsman if”.

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48 minutes ago, a matt said:

 But now you’d be asking shooters to paint the steel that they haven’t even touched all day. That’s a whole BIG ASS can of worms around here.

Start a post titled “you’re a sorry ass shooter/sportsman if”.

 

I’m not sure what you mean here.

 

Painting steel after every shooter is just a part of reset, just like picking the steel up and pasting the targets.

 

Also, it’s in the rules (4.1.3.7) that metal targets must be painted after each shooter, although level 1 matches are given an exception (4.1.3.7.1).

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The RO who said they saw it didn’t call stop, that’s the first mistake. In the real world it’s probably getting scored as shot at a level 1 lol.


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so did it fall down during the stage without being struck? or did the shooter get an edge hit on one of the front poppers that went on to strike the back popper? If the popper was still up when the shooter started engaging the poppers, I'd say it is scored as shot. Sometimes you get a 2-fer with steel arranged like that, although if I had a crappy run, I might be tempted to whine like a little biatch to try to get a reshoot....  ;)

 

Was this stage 6? or 15? I know some 2-fers happened on 6.

Edited by motosapiens

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ill Go back and listen before I quote the RO but it was something like,  I saw it fall when he was shooting at it or,, shooting at them. . 
 

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so did it fall down during the stage without being struck? or did the shooter get an edge hit on one of the front poppers that went on to strike the back popper? If the popper was still up when the shooter started engaging the poppers, I'd say it is scored as shot. Sometimes you get a 2-fer with steel arranged like that, although if I had a crappy run, I might be tempted to whine like a little biatch to try to get a reshoot.... 
 
Was this stage 6? or 15? I know some 2-fers happened on 6.

That’s a good question to ask, it’s hard to judge not being there as well but if was engaging them and it fell can’t really do much about it I suppose.


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8 minutes ago, a matt said:

ill Go back and listen before I quote the RO but it was something like,  I saw it fall when he was shooting at it or,, shooting at them. . 
 

 

if it fell while he was shooting the other poppers, then it seems very possible that he got an edge hit which may or may not have knocked down the front popper, but knocked down the rear one. Or he just missed by a bunch, since IIRC, you could see one of the back poppers pretty well around the edges of the front ones.

 

Quote

9.1.5.4 If a bullet strikes partially within the scoring area of a cardboard or metal target and continues on to strike down or hit the scoring area of another metal target, the subsequent metal target will also count for score or penalty, as the case may be.

 

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I whatched a shooter knock 3 mini poppers down with one shot once. The RO on the clock looked back to me quizzically (I was MD/RM) I nodded to let them finish. Walked down and looked at the edge hit on one and the frag hits on the other 2. It was pretty cool and I was glad the RO didnt jump the gun and stop them.

Su as Moto said if they were all up when the first shot was fired at the array then I'm not stopping them, they may have fragged one enough to get a double or more, while confusing to the shooter in the moment still perfectly legal.

Also if I have a shooter finishing their last position when I notice a REF problem I will likely let them finish if its only a few rounds rather than jar their nerves by shouting stop at them. Earlier in the run for sure but 6 rounds from the end nope

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28 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

I whatched a shooter knock 3 mini poppers down with one shot once. The RO on the clock looked back to me quizzically (I was MD/RM) I nodded to let them finish. Walked down and looked at the edge hit on one and the frag hits on the other 2. It was pretty cool and I was glad the RO didnt jump the gun and stop them.

Su as Moto said if they were all up when the first shot was fired at the array then I'm not stopping them, they may have fragged one enough to get a double or more, while confusing to the shooter in the moment still perfectly legal.

Also if I have a shooter finishing their last position when I notice a REF problem I will likely let them finish if its only a few rounds rather than jar their nerves by shouting stop at them. Earlier in the run for sure but 6 rounds from the end nope

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I saw that trick in a western, He must have carved the lead and had it split at the barrel

 

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