Hosing And Its Place In Stage Design.

[Ron Ankeny]

In another thread (which I can’t find) someone asked what is meant by a “hoser course”. I have a sale pending on my .38 Super single stack so I went to the range to burn up the remaining ammo. I set up a reproduction of the front half of a hoser course that I encountered earlier in the summer. What better way to get rid of ammo than Bill Drills and hoser courses? This is the link to the hoser course.. The file is in wmv format. Take a peek; it’s entertaining.

Hopefully you could view the clip. The actual course of fire I shot earlier in the summer featured four shooting positions (two more vision barriers) and a fault line. The target arrays shown are very similar the first two arrays of the original course.

I suppose I should embrace the opportunity to shoot hoser courses. After all, hosing is what I do best. Still, I dislike courses that are primarily hosing for several reasons. I hate to drive 100 miles each way for something so simplistic. Multiple targets in close proximity do not test speed, power, and accuracy. They only test speed, and even then it’s only a test of trigger speed and the ability to nudge the gun quickly. Furthermore, I am absolutely convinced that an over abundance of close targets with small spacing actually causes shooting fundamentals to deteriorate. Hosing does the beginner no favors as far as overall shooting development in a match setting. The only redeeming quality of a strictly hoser course is the brief rush and the intensity.

If a course designer wants to include a few hoser targets in an otherwise well balanced field course, I am all for that. Heck, I am all for an entire array of targets at arm’s length included somewhere in a field course. But 30-40 rounds in your face with a hit factor between 16 and 20? Give me a break.

I know I am really anal about this and I am stubborn as a mule. So I thought I would ask the forum members. Is hosing a viable skill? Should hosing be "tested" periodically in a match and if so, should we shoot an entire hoser course or just include the occasional hoser array? What are your thoughts? If most of you like hoser stuff, I'll include more at our next match to see how receptive our shooters are to the concept.

[Merlin Orr]

........I know I am really anal about this and I am stubborn as a mule. So I thought I would ask the forum members. Is hosing a viable skill?  Should hosing be "tested" periodically in a match and if so, should we shoot an entire hoser course or just include the occasional hoser array? What are your thoughts? If most of you like hoser stuff, I'll include more at our next match to see how receptive our shooters are to the concept.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Condensed - All things in moderation. Balance is the answer. I shot the "40 yard" classifier the other day and it Kicked My Ass. I shot a hoser where you moved about 30 yards last Sunday - and had a mike - on the first friggin target. Close and fast still requires mental disipline.

[Schutzenmeister]

Ron ... I agree with you 100%! An occasional hoser course is fun, but too much of it leads to really bad habits and dosen't really proved much. You also need a good blend of long shots and tight shots to test your ability to hit a difficult target under stress.

[Shooter Grrl]

Hosers are not bad - they too force you to develop skills. I've seen many many many many many many misses on hoser stages from people "assuming" that they can just spray and pray.

That said, an entire match of it is okay occasionally, but I REALLY REALLY prefer a nice balance of stages.

[tightloop]

If you have a match with more than 6 stages, one should be a hoser stage just for the fun of it..but more than that leads to bad habits ...

Just my .02

[XRe]

If you have a match with more than 6 stages, one should be a hoser stage just for the fun of it

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

...and one should be a long range standards I'm dead serious...

I agree with points already made - a good balance is in order. Some hose, some anti-hose, some in between. Variety is, after all, the spice of life (or so they say...) ... I keep thinking it's garlic, basil, oregano, cardamon, corriander, salt, pepper......

[BSeevers]

Balance is the key for a fair match BUT I can't remember ever hearing shooters come off a 45 yard standards run saying "That was fun I am going to set it up next week at our club" You hear it all the time after a wild "blazer" stage.

Balance for a major but remember your customers at a local. The Big match shooters can practice 50 yards on their own.

I like to make them shoot long then close or close then long sometimes to make more of a challenge.

[Al Capizzo]

I'll agree with most of the comments above. In a match a balance of hoser to more difficult shots is what makes a match fun.

Shooting at speed like this is a skill though, and besides being fun it should be occasionally tested.

I think.

Al

[JFD]

Hoser stages are fun and that's the main reason we shoot matches (most of us anyway). At least one hoser stage in a match suits me just fine. Since I'm slow, shooting at speed is a definite skill that needs to be tested, refined, learned, or maybe given up on.

Long range standards stages are not fun. I practice for them and do well enough on them, but they are not fun. However they are the ultimate test of accuracy, so I'm not about to complain.

Last Saturday I shot a match where 3 of the 5 stages had a near perfect balance of short, medium, and long range targets. The speed aspect of these stages kicked my butt, but I had a great time.

Honestly I've never understood the power aspect of DVC, since we have no targets that can't be defeated by a bug fart 125 PF load, but since I love USPSA it must be a good thing.

[shred]

I thought the World Shoot courses were by and large excellent in terms of shooting challenges-- hosing, accuracy, speeding up, slowing down, the whole bit. Targets up close, some with no-shoots, some without, targets far away, some with no shoots and some without and plenty of tight shots to boot (maybe a few too many of those ). There were a couple goofy courses and a few too many unloaded chamber starts for my taste, but the balance were great. No standards either.

Of course if you weren't there, it won't mean much to you-- pictures and video just aren't the same.

The most-hoser stage (albeit short) had an activating popper, 3 static paper (classic targets) and a disappearing drop-turner at about 12-15 yards. The manly shooting order was to draw to the popper and finish on the drop-turner. The really good hosers shot all A's in under 3 seconds.

[Flyin40]

I have to agree with BSeevers on this one. He said remember the customer at the locals. If most think back to when they were first introduced to this sport most would agree that those 50 yd stages wasn't what left the new shooters with an open jaws after watching. It was those Hoser stages, I know I left that first match I watched in total denial. "Theres no way those guys are aiming".

I think the hoser stages are a must from a recruitment aspect. Simple courses that keep the customers happy. If I was shooting a 7 stage match I would have no problem with two of them being hoser stages. That leaves you with a stage as a classifier, 2 long courses and 2 medium courses that can have some hoser targets as well as some longer shots.

Balance keeps everyone happy, hoser stages keeps the new comers really happy.

Thats the point of this sport anyways, at least for me, I want to walk away with a smile on my face.

Flyin40

[j2fast]

Being relatively new to the game I agree with Flyin40. Before I ever shot a stage it was videos of folks like TGO, Doug K, etc shooting hoser stages that first got me hooked. Now that I've got some locals and a sectional match under my belt I enjoy a mix of stages at a match. I don't enjoy a match as much if it's nothing but hose, reload, repeat. I look forward to the mental part of the game where I need to break down a complex stage. Still throw in the hoser stages, I like watching the better shoot them as much as shooting them myself.

[Ron Ankeny]

Yes balance is the key. To the best of my recollection, I have never seen a target at any shoot in Wyoming beyond 25 yards. I can count the number of targets that were truly difficult on one hand. Then I go to the front range in Colorado, or off to an Area shoot to learn what it means to actually see the sights. Locally, we are not preparing shooters to be competitive on the road. People love those hoser stages, but gripe if a popper shows up much beyond 12-15 yards. Ask yourselves, how many targets do you see during a season beyond 20 yards in comparison to those you see closer than 10 yards?

I honestly believe hoser stages are popular with shooters who are in the earlier stages of development because they can all make the shots, then let the timer sort things out. Take the video I posted for example. How much difference in time would there be between the middle aged fat guy shown vs. a world class GM shooter? I suspect not a whole lot. Hoser stages are easy on the ego and provide immediate gratification. Yes, that is a good thing, but at what expense to shooting development and where do we draw the line?

[Flyin40]

I just seen the link you had posted and watched the hoser stage. Here in Ohio we have hoser stages but nothing like that. Your right, about anyone could do well on that stage. The hoser stages setup around here still require some skill, not as much as as a long course but its just not as easy as the video. I can remember one at Circleville that was done I believe in high 3 seconds to 4 seconds. It had 2 paper, 2 PP1 one being a activator and a drop turner with barrels and one of the PPoppers being hidden around the side of a barrel. This was a speed stage but you had to really nail it to shoot it fast. Shoot the activator, 2 paper then the drop turner and then move to get the other hidden PPopper to the far left. Alot of beginners watched the better shooters shoot it, some tried it, some played it safe.

Another course had 4 paper about 3 yds away to the left and another 4 paper to the right 3 yds away, maybe closer, then 4 Pepper Poppers and with 4 of the small 6inch plates that fall down behind them. I shot a 16.9 hf on the stage but this could easily been alot lower if I missed any of the plates. My point is our hoser stages still require skill to shoot thats why I enjoy them. The hoser stage on the video, I really don't think I would like to see more than one of those in 7 stages. I have only shot 1 stage this whole yr that was a hoser stage like that and I have shot 25 matches this yr. We just don't see them around here that easy.

Flyin40

[Loves2Shoot]

Ron ... I agree with you 100%!  An occasional hoser course is fun, but too much of it leads to really bad habits and dosen't really proved much.  You also need a good blend of long shots and tight shots to test your ability to hit a difficult target under stress.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

+1

I think a hoser and a standard in match are ok, but please no more than one of either.

Ps. I can hose, but it won't help you in this game much at all. Especially at the bigger matches.

[Bob Hostetter]

I like a nice balance between close in fast stuff and longer range accuracy stages. But I prefer a true balance, ala 50% hoser and 50% accuracy. Most of the time you will see maybe 1 out of 6 stages true hosing stages with the rest medium to lon range stuff. Thats not a balance, that a token.....

And on the same note a 12 round hoser stage it not a hoser stage, thats an IDPA stage. Hoser stages should be 25-30 rounds (or more) of close in, high speed work. While the skill necessary to shoot 5 or 6 targets at warp speed is fairly low, try keeping it up thru 30 rounds. That is a true test of your high speed skills.

Matches shouldn't be designed to prepare you for other matches, practice should be designed to prepare you for all matches. Matches are where you go to prove you have already done your homework.

Just my 2 cents........

[eerw]

I think a good balance is important..too much of either gets way too boring..

I really like when a stage mixes the two..requiring a shooter to switch gears between shooting smooth and fast and shooting really accurately..

I also love stages that combine the two..in that a shooter is given options to shoot a stage from a distance and accurately or run like hell and shoot fast..playing to whatever a shooter thinks is faster or to their strength..

Hosing is a skill..just like shooting 50 yard groups is ...all of it needs to be developed and practiced to be truly good at this sport..

[Genghis]

At Area 4 my best stage was a hoser stage. My results reflected my D-Class status in Limited at the time, but things would have been a lot more sobering if it weren't for that one stage. It was tough enough thinking I'd smoked the stage, then seeing a B-Class Open shooter accidentally drop his mag on the draw, then Bang - Click - Reload - Rack - Bang, and beat my time. But still, hoser stages are fun.

The 50 Yard Standards was tough (one D, the rest misses), but only because I hadn't prepared. Things will be different next time.

Stages that force shooters to shift gears are tough, but a welcome challenge.

[Ron Ankeny]

Matches shouldn't be designed to prepare you for other matches, practice should be designed to prepare you for all matches. Matches are where you go to prove you have already done your homework.

I agree that practice is where you prepare for matches. However, local matches must expose shooters to what they will encounter at a larger venue or the local match is a total waste of time for those of us who travel. Would you guys rather shoot four mid to long field courses of high enough quality to be seen at the Nationals, or half a dozen courses thrown together in haste that don't even follow the tenants of freestyle?

[Flexmoney]

CHAPTER 1: Course Design

The following general principles of course design list the criteria, responsibilities

and restrictions governing course designers as the architects of the

sport of IPSC shooting.

1.1 General Principles

1.1.1 Safety – IPSC matches must be designed, constructed and conducted

with due consideration to safety.

1.1.2 Quality – The value of an IPSC match is determined by the quality

of the challenge presented in the course design. Courses of fire must be designed primarily to test a competitor’s IPSC shooting skills, not their physical abilities.

1.1.3 Balance – Accuracy, Power and Speed are equivalent elements of IPSC shooting, and are expressed in the Latin words “Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas” (“DVC”). A properly balanced course of fire will depend largely upon the nature of the challenges presented therein, however, courses must be designed, and IPSC matches must be conducted in such a way, as to evaluate these elements equally.

1.1.4 Diversity – IPSC shooting challenges are diverse. While it is not

necessary to construct new courses for each match, no single course of fire must be repeated to allow its use to be considered a definitive measure of IPSC shooting skills.

1.1.5 Freestyle – IPSC matches are freestyle. Competitors must be permitted to solve the challenge presented in a freestyle manner, and to shoot targets on an “as and when visible” basis. Courses of fire must not require mandatory reloads nor dictate a shooting position or stance, except as specified below. However, conditions may be created, and barriers or other physical limitations may be constructed, to compel a competitor into shooting positions or

stances.

-- US1.1.5.1 Level I matches are not required to comply strictly with the freestyle requirements or round count limitations.

-- 1.1.5.2 Standard Exercises and Classifiers may include mandatory reloads and may dictate a shooting position or stance, however, mandatory reloads must never be required in other Long Courses.

-- 1.1.5.3 Standard Exercises and Classifiers may specify shooting with the strong hand or weak hand unsupported. The specified hand must be used xclusively from the point stipulated for the remainder of the string or stage.

1.1.6 Difficulty -- IPSC matches present varied degrees of difficulty. No shooting challenge or time limit may be appealed as being prohibitive. This does not apply to non-shooting challenges, which should reasonably allow for differences in competitor’s height and physical build.

1.1.7 Challenge – IPSC Handgun matches recognize the difficulty of using full power handguns in dynamic shooting, and must always employ a minimum caliber and power level to be attained by all competitors to reflect this challenge.

[mcb]

The accuracy and speed aspects of USPSA shooting makes sense to my limited experience. Where does power come to play? Is is simple the amount of recoil a shooter has to deal with or does power come to play in other aspects?

mcb

[Flexmoney]

Good thread, Ron.

[MikeFoley]

This is a great thread. I do not prefer the "hoser stages", but hoser arrays inside of stages can be great fun and practice. I recently came to understand that my points stay the same on the hoser as they do on other stages, but there are those who place much higher in stage points when there is a hoser. Consequently, those same shooters do well in a match that lends itself to the term "HOSEFEST". I lose more ground under this scenario, than when there is true balance. I used to think the hoser was fun, but now it is actually more of a challenge for me to do well on than a typical medium length field course. A great stage with hoser targets that also tested range, accuracy, patience, movement and transition was shot a few months ago at KAPS. Several 5 yard and less targets on the left of a wall, and some 40-50 yard paper and poppers on the right side. This was good balance. All 5 yard full targets don't test much other than speed IMO.

[BrianWilson]

Hi.I think hosing is a skill,and although the times between the good guys and the almost good guys might not be hugely different, won't one mike set you way back?Sometimes we end with a stage like that because someone didnt show up to set-up their stage on Saturday,but mostly I like to mix it in,say just in front of a couple a long tough shots."Visual patience"no?Sorry for the thread drift,but in the video,I count like 10 shots on the left array,and maybe 8 on the right,but I only see perhaps 6-8 hit the rear berm on the left and 2 on the right.Where do you suppose the others ended up after ricocheting off the ground?

[ong45]

BrianWilson Posted Today, 01:53 PM

  Hi.I think hosing is a skill,and although the times between the good guys and the almost good guys might not be hugely different

I have observed that the big guys will beat us by about the same percentage on "hosers" as they will on everything else, thinking that hosers bring them down to earth closer to us mortals is a myth imho.

consider smoke & hope as a good example, albeit from a different game.

James