Hosing And Its Place In Stage Design.

[BrianWilson]

Respectfully James,we may be beating the same drum.Would not being beaten by a percentage by the big dog imply points,not just raw time?

[John Dunn]

Hi.I think hosing is a skill,and although the times between the good guys and the almost good guys might not be hugely different, won't one mike set you way back?Sometimes we end with a stage like that because someone didnt show up to set-up their stage on Saturday,but mostly I like to  mix it in,say just in front of a couple a long tough shots."Visual patience"no?Sorry for the thread drift,but in the video,I count like 10 shots on the left array,and maybe 8 on the right,but I only see perhaps 6-8 hit the rear berm on the left and 2 on the right.Where do you suppose the others ended up after ricocheting off the ground?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The nice thing about Wyoming is that the berms are largely a formality, I'm guessing that any lead that leaves the range lands somewhere in the outer darkness.

The Area 1 stages this year were a great balance...hose in the Sub, change up on the Hallway stage, got to love it!

[ong45]

BrianWilson Posted Today, 04:22 PM

  Respectfully James,we may be beating the same drum.Would not being beaten by a percentage by the big dog imply points,not just raw time?

Were probably beating the same drum but with different timing

To clarify, what i meant was we'll get beaten by the same percentage either way you look at it. If you shot the same time as a GM with worse points or slower time with the same points the ass whoopin's the same (hit factor)

In my experience, the gap almost always shows up in both points and time.

James

[Bob Hostetter]

Local matches should stand on their own, they should not be training or practice venues for the traveling shooters. This does nothing but short change the "local" guys that only shoot the "local" matches.

USPSA clubs are serivce orginations that provide a service to a local area. They need to provide the types of courses that the locals will support, within the rules provided by the sanctioning body, USPSA. We have the same problem here, if that is what you want to call it. At Norco you can always tell where the match directors are going to travel to and shoot next by the course designs and target styles. The last couple of months we have seen nothing but international style targets and lower round counts then normal, getting ready for the Worlds. You could see attandance drop off because the locals weren't happy with course designs. Last weekend we were back to the more common course designs with a higher round count and the regular targets, and attendance was back up.

I travel a fair amount to matches and I am planning on doing a lot more traveling next year to matches, but still believe local matches (and shooters) shouldn't be disregarded in favor of the traveling shooters (a smaller %) needing a training venue.

[shred]

Repeat after me "The best shooters will always separate themselves from the pack on time and points". The stage design is irrelevant.

[MikeFoley]

It is far more possible for a lesser shooter to prevail in an up close hoser course, and it happens frequently. They connect on the hoser, but won't last long in a more balanced COF or match.

[ong45]

Bob Hostetter Posted Today, 06:46 PM

  Local matches should stand on their own, they should not be training or practice venues for the traveling shooters. This does nothing but short change the "local" guys that only shoot the "local" matches.

You're absolutely right Bob, one thing to consider is that the people who run the local clubs are usually the same ones who commit the time and resources travelling to bigger matches. The "shortchanging", good or bad will probably go on.

not to drift the topic or be contentious but if the courses of fire do not meet with the people's approval , they are obligated to do "something" about it.

James

[Ron Ankeny]

Local matches should stand on their own, they should not be training or practice venues for the traveling shooters. This does nothing but short change the "local" guys that only shoot the "local" matches.

I do not understand how bringing Level II course design principles down to Level I matches short changes shooters. FWIW, our club is building a reputation for consistently offering high quality courses suitable for beginners though GM. The cost is high in terms of capitol outlay for items like walls, vision barriers, props, and so on. The expense in terms of human resources is also large. But the pay off is worth the extra effort.

Our club shifted our course design philosophy when a couple of us started to travel to large matches. We realized there is no reason for the constant abuse of the Level I exclusions regarding freestyle engagement and round count limitations so prevalent around the country (unless the club has very limited resources). It became painfully obvious we were offering some pretty bush league courses of fire because of our limited experience and ignorance of good course design principles. Myself and a couple of fellow shooters decided we could do better.

Here's an example. At out last match I went to the range the day before to set up the walls and layout the basics of a modified Dutchman's Shuffle, similar to the one seen at Area One. The next morning I arrived several hours before match time to finish up the course with help from a fellow shooter who had also shot the stage at Area One. Our intent was to expose our local shooters to the type of course they would encounter at a large match. After many hours of work we had a killer stage suitable for the Nationals. Now some of you come along and tell me offering big match shooting experiences at the local level short changes our shooters? I guess I just don't get it? Go ahead, color me stupid.

As far as I am concerned, bad course design is bad course design be it in Podunk, Wyoming or at Barry. Is it wrong for a local club strive to emulate the efforts of those course designers who bring us the best they have to offer at big matches? I think not. I refuse to revert back to tossing a couple of boxes on the ground, putting a barricade over there, a short wall over here, and scattering little clumps of targets at random.

[Bob Hostetter]

Ron,

I think you either misunderstood me or I poorly stated my point....

I am not against good course design, nor am I against well balanced shooting programs at any level. My point was that local clubs are, or at least should be, aimed at providing a service to local shooter, not a training ground for a small percentage of the shooters who travel to larger matches. If the local shooters, or the bulk of the shooters at a specific club, prefer long field courses, or standards, or hoser stages, the club should work to provide that. And I believe that if the locals are not getting what they want they should either step up and start running the matches, or vote with their money, and shoot somewhere else.

Some clubs, such as Norco, are privately owned, and its not possible to step up and control the course designs. In my case I am fairly happy with the stages Norco offers and as such continue to spend my money there. But, I don't go to Norco with the idea in my head that I am going there to practice for a specific event. I go there to compete, to test my skills and discover what I need to work on, and if anything, work on my timing.

[Ron Ankeny]

Bob:

I feel like an ass. I read your comment out of context from ong45's quote. Now that I have read your entire post, I see where you are coming from and I agree with what you are saying.

As the old saying goes, "It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought an idiot than open your mouth and prove it". Well I just hate it when I prove I am an idiot to the entire shooting community.

[shred]

We had a reasonably-local club that was mostly composed of higher-level and travelling shooters. They put on monthly matches where the stages would not have been out of place in an Area match. Trouble was, they got a reputation as a 'hard stages' club and attendance dropped off until they backed off and made the stages easier.

Catering to the local shooter base? Sure. Doing them a service? Who knows.

[Flexmoney]

Ron, your posts didn't make you out as an ass, nor did Bob's. This is a pretty good discussion.

However, you are both a year older...where's the cake? (don't tell me you are enjoying Cheetos)

Catering to the local shooter base? Sure. Doing them a service? Who knows.

[Nolan]

Happy Birthday to both of you! And to think this whole thread got started because of my warped sense of humor!

Nolan

Skilled, but otherwise unremarkable.

[gino_aki]

I mostly notice that hosers test whether my gun is REALLY working that day or not.