GorillaTactical Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 (edited) Hey All, Was having a conversation with a friend regarding the origin of putting red dots on modern handguns - I know that open shooters have been doing it for a VERY long time in the various action shooting sports. Does anyone know approximately how far back you've had to go to find the original open 1911s/2011s with original red dots? Any photos people have would be amazing! Would love to see some of these old/original setups! Thanks in advance Edited February 24, 2019 by GorillaTactical Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fo0 Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 (edited) First IPSC Open World Champion was 1975 First USPSA Open National Champion was 1977 Edited February 24, 2019 by Fo0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2Xalpha Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 I believe that is not quite correct.. Back in the days, when men were men, everyone competed against everyone - there were no divisions. American Ray Chapman won the 1975 World Shoot using hist iron sighted .45 caliber 1911. A year later, the unknown Norwegian Jan Foss stole the gold from the now big favorite Chapman. Interestingsly Foss used a 9 mm single stack SIG P210, having the disadvantage of minor power factor, but the advantage of an 8 round capacity as opposed to Chapman's 7. (So maybe the P210 also should be allowed in Classic division?) Just to have mentioned it, the 1977 World Shoot the following year was won by Rhodesian Dave Westerhout using a single action, double stack Browning Hi-Power in 9 mm. I think open guns as we know them started to appear towards the end of the 1980's. Someone might have to correct me on this, but I think extended barrels with fixed front sights came first, then compensators, and lastly red dots. Believe single stack 1911 was the thing back then. What is certain is that the first to win a world championship with a red dot was Doug Koenig (USA) at the 1990 IPSC Handgun World Shoot in Australia. In 1992 IPSC introduced the Open division, becoming effective from January 1993. Then at the 1993 IPSC Handgun World Shoot in Great Britain, Canadian Matthew McLearn represented USA taking the first world Open division title. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2Xalpha Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 One place to start looking can be USPSA Front Sight editions from the late 80's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stardust tommy Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 ask Rob Leatham or Doug Koenig :-) on youtube there are some old Bianchi cup video's... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2Xalpha Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 Here is a video from the 1993 World Shoot in England. At this point the Open guns look pretty much the same as now. Got me thinking about when double stack 1911 started to take over. This article from American Rifleman (https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2017/10/25/a-look-back-at-the-m1911-double-stack/) mentions the Para-Ordnance high-capacity frame being introduced in 1988. "At the time, the grand old M1911 pistol was rapidly losing the arms race among recreational shooters to double-stack pistols in 9 mm Luger. Hardly a month went by without a new, higher-capacity “wonder-nine” being introduced. [...] Carefully choosing a bumper pad for the double-stack magazine gave John Browning’s pistol the capability of holding 21 cartridges of .38 Super. When extended magazines were later approved for competition, capacity jumped to a “load-on-Sunday-and-shoot-all-week” 27 rounds." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yigal Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 19 minutes ago, 2Xalpha said: One place to start looking can be USPSA Front Sight editions from the late 80's. i saw Jery Barnhart with collimator sight in late 80's. i started to use tasco pdp2 in 1992. best scope in the world. about compensators or muzzle breaks in 30's US gunsmith made custom 1911's for known american gangster. it was bushing type muzzle brake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2Xalpha Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 Was that collimator sight one of the that look like an iron rear sight? That's the predecessor of Production Optics right there. Would like to hear when compensators started to get used in IPSC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2Xalpha Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 (edited) Here's a video from the 1986 World Shoot in Floridahttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNK8Do5tRHg Difficult to see what guns they are using, but it looks like iron sighted 1911's. 1989 Steel Challenge:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxfuKltuzME Seems to be some 1911's with sight tracker compensators. However, Steel Challenge might be a style of competition where irons sights are preferred due to increased speed on short distances, so it may not reflect the trend in IPSC at that time. Also, I have a hard time telling if the guns are single or double stacks. Edited February 24, 2019 by 2Xalpha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yigal Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 1 hour ago, 2Xalpha said: Here's a video from the 1986 World Shoot in Floridahttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNK8Do5tRHg Difficult to see what guns they are using, but it looks like iron sighted 1911's. 1989 Steel Challenge:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxfuKltuzME Seems to be some 1911's with sight tracker compensators. However, Steel Challenge might be a style of competition where irons sights are preferred due to increased speed on short distances, so it may not reflect the trend in IPSC at that time. Also, I have a hard time telling if the guns are single or double stacks. most guns was 1911 single stuck .most of them cal .45 clark and wilson models with front sight on comp. i used in 86 wilson model 9mm . and from 86 compensated 3 chambers cz75 with peter sthal 5.25" polygonal barrels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OPENB Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 2 hours ago, 2Xalpha said: Here is a video from the 1993 World Shoot in England. At this point the Open guns look pretty much the same as now. Got me thinking about when double stack 1911 started to take over. This article from American Rifleman (https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2017/10/25/a-look-back-at-the-m1911-double-stack/) mentions the Para-Ordnance high-capacity frame being introduced in 1988. "At the time, the grand old M1911 pistol was rapidly losing the arms race among recreational shooters to double-stack pistols in 9 mm Luger. Hardly a month went by without a new, higher-capacity “wonder-nine” being introduced. [...] Carefully choosing a bumper pad for the double-stack magazine gave John Browning’s pistol the capability of holding 21 cartridges of .38 Super. When extended magazines were later approved for competition, capacity jumped to a “load-on-Sunday-and-shoot-all-week” 27 rounds." Very interesting video! I noticed the Caspian hi cap in the opening scenes, and Rob has what appears to be a STI mag in his hand at the chrono scene. Matt Mc. has a C-more, most everyone else is using a Tasco. When did the C-more debut? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yigal Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 i have pic.of competition guns from 1992 european champ. Spain first open holster in the world. 1911 guns in 38cal many. german made 1911 stile gun like phoenix trinity honcho . 10mm cal 6" long slide. cz long slide 6" barrel tanfoglio with aimpoint jericho 941 open gun and i saw few open glocks that shoot major . most 9mm guns shoot major loads in this competition as i remember. most optic was aimpoint and tasco pdp 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powder Finger Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 Rob won his first nationals/world shoot with a comp'd 45 1983 I think. Jerry was the first I remember with a dot maybe 1987. I think Mr. Brian was one of the first with an Aimpoint for Bianchi early 80's (revolver). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwoShot Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 Jerry won the 1990 Nationals at Barry with a Tasco dot. There was a lady shooter, I believe Canadian, with an Aimpoint on her open gun. Team Springfield shot the P9 with open sights in the 9mm JLE. The JLE was "just long enough" i.e. 9X21, to be legal as 9X19 major was illegal with the 175 power factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powder Finger Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 totally forgot about the nickname JLE. 1990 world shoot went to Koenig p9 with dot. As I recall that started the big shift to dots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GorillaTactical Posted February 24, 2019 Author Share Posted February 24, 2019 You guys are awesome - thank you for all the info - going to do some additional digging into the publications and such! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
open17 Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 Looks like they were playing with red dots in the mid 1980's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flatland Shooter Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 My first red dot was an Aimpoint with about a 3/4" tube. Ran it on a S&W 586 in the 1984 season. I built the first high-cap in our section about a month after Para offered their blocky aluminum 45 ACP receiver. (I still remember the accusations I was cheating with that 13 rd mag) I installed a Wilson LEK comp on that gun and used it in the 1987 Nationals. It still had a Bomar rear sight. I think its still in the gun safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 6 hours ago, 2Xalpha said: Here is a video from the 1993 World Shoot in England. At this point the Open guns look pretty much the same as now. I shot that match with a Chip McCormick framed open gun built by Richard Wilson in UK. I think I used a Tasco scope for that match but later switched to an Aimpoint. That gun would still be competitive today, if it hadn’t been melted down in the great gun ban of 1997. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GorillaTactical Posted February 24, 2019 Author Share Posted February 24, 2019 12 minutes ago, Flatland Shooter said: My first red dot was an Aimpoint with about a 3/4" tube. Ran it on a S&W 586 in the 1984 season. I built the first high-cap in our section about a month after Para offered their blocky aluminum 45 ACP receiver. (I still remember the accusations I was cheating with that 13 rd mag) I installed a Wilson LEK comp on that gun and used it in the 1987 Nationals. It still had a Bomar rear sight. I think its still in the gun safe. No way - pictures! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powder Finger Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 https://americanhandgunner.com/classic-issues/american-handgunner-1984-and-1985-classic-editions in you search ahg + year you can find some old mags here is the old aimpoint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 Bill Wilson's book has some interesting stuff about gun development as well in the early years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoMiE Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 Although scoped pistols were in use, I thought Barnhart was the first to show up with a c-more red dot on a double stack 38 super in 1992 and pretty much next year everyone had moved to that setup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yigal Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 6 minutes ago, HoMiE said: Although scoped pistols were in use, I thought Barnhart was the first to show up with a c-more red dot on a double stack 38 super in 1992 and pretty much next year everyone had moved to that setup. sorry to disappoint u but in 1992 80% of shooters in Eu championship used scopes.J.B started use scope before Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoMiE Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 3 minutes ago, yigal said: sorry to disappoint u but in 1992 80% of shooters in Eu championship used scopes.J.B started use scope before I know scoped pistols were is use, but I’m referring to c-more red dot and move away from tubes on top of pistols. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now