How Long have Open Guns Existed?

[ChuckS]

3 minutes ago, HoMiE said:

I know scoped pistols were is use, but I’m referring to c-more red dot and move away from tubes on top of pistols. 

[HoMiE]

2 minutes ago, ChuckS said:

So after 92’ then

[ChuckS]

I found this in the archives:

 

Dunno if Matt was the only one but Jerry was still on tube in 1993:

 

ETA: Matt won the USPSA Open Nationals and the IPSC World Shoot that year. I bet C-More had a hard time meeting demand in '94

Edited February 24, 2019 by ChuckS

[Flatland Shooter]

1 hour ago, GorillaTactical said:

No way - pictures!  

 

Found it way back in the gun safe.

First time its been out in daylight in over 20 years. 

Looks like I pulled the Bomar off for another project.

 

[GrumpyOne]

2 minutes ago, Flatland Shooter said:

 

Found it way back in the gun safe.

First time its been out in daylight in over 20 years. 

Looks like I pulled the Bomar off for another project.

 

You know they go bad if you don't shoot them, right? 

[Flatland Shooter]

1 minute ago, GrumpyOne said:

You know they go bad if you don't shoot them, right? 

 

Did not know that.  Guess I need to back a trash can up to the gun safe and do a little maintenance.

 

Thanks for the tip. 

[RJH]

This thread brings to mind a question, If you took one of those mid 90s guns with the c more, and used big sticks and a magwell, would they still be competitive today?  Has there been huge leaps in comps, etc., is I guess what i am wondering?

[Flatland Shooter]

11 minutes ago, RJH said:

This thread brings to mind a question, If you took one of those mid 90s guns with the c more, and used big sticks and a magwell, would they still be competitive today?  Has there been huge leaps in comps, etc., is I guess what i am wondering?

 

I think the main improvements have been comp related.  I was able to keep some of my older open guns in play by upgrading the comps.  Little things like the Aftec extractors lightweight hammers and triggers also has helped a bit but comps is the big thing.  When the USPSA lowered the PF for major, the comp wars began all over again.

[titandriver]

4 hours ago, TwoShot said:

  The JLE was "just long enough" i.e. 9X21, to be legal as 9X19 major was illegal with the 175 power factor.

Not quite - 

The following was copied from the July 1, 1990 Board of Directors meeting minutes found on the USPSA Members web site. 

"The BOD entered into executive discussion of the .38 super and .9mm and put together the following resolutions which were unanimously passed. 

WHEREAS one of the principal obligations of the Board of Directors of the United States Practical Shooting Association is to encourage the development of equipment and techniques that will safely advance the craft of practical shooting in a sporting atmosphere, and 

WHEREAS empirical evidence has been presented to the Board of Directors that raises serious questions of safety regarding the loading of 9mm (9X19) ammunition so that it can achieve the major power factor of 175,000, 

NOW THEREFORE, IT IS HEREBY RESOLVED, that the use of 9mm Parabellum (9X19) ammunition with an overall length of LESS than 1.250 inches AND LOADED TO THE MAJOR POWER FACTOR CATEGORY is specifically prohibited and will not be allowed to be used in USPSA events until such time as the Board of Directors can be assured by clear and convincing verifiable evidence that such ammunition can be safely loaded to achieve the major power factor category." 

I followed up the discussion with a quick email to President Voigt and he stated: 

"1990 BOD decision is in effect at this point"

[Fo0]

2 hours ago, HoMiE said:

So after 92’ then

 

the cmore railway was released in 1993

 

 

[Fo0]

"Red dot sights were not new in the late 1980s; they had been around. The first-generation Aimpoint Electronic was a red dot originally meant for rifles in the late 1970s.

 

However, in IPSC, Jerry Barnhart was the first to figure out how to use a subsequent model on a handgun. He showed up at the 1990 USPSA Nationals with a red dot sight and beat us so badly it was embarrassing.

 

Two months later, Doug Koenig mounted a scope on his gun, practiced with it and won the World Shoot with it that same year."

 

-gunsandammo

 

[2Xalpha]

And here's the link to Guns & Ammo: http://www.gunsandammo.com/editorial/a-history-of-pistol-mounted-red-dots/248367

 

4 hours ago, titandriver said:

"The BOD entered into executive discussion of the .38 super and .9mm and put together the following resolutions which were unanimously passed.  [...] NOW THEREFORE, IT IS HEREBY RESOLVED, that the use of 9mm Parabellum (9X19) ammunition with an overall length of LESS than 1.250 inches AND LOADED TO THE MAJOR POWER FACTOR CATEGORY is specifically prohibited and will not be allowed to be used in USPSA events [...]

 

1 1/4 inches is 31.75 mm, while 9×19 mm factory ammo seems to be specced to 29.69 mm. Did those extra two millimeters effectively ban 9 mm major, and for how long?

[ChuckS]

13 minutes ago, 2Xalpha said:

And here's the link to Guns & Ammo: http://www.gunsandammo.com/editorial/a-history-of-pistol-mounted-red-dots/248367

 

 

1 1/4 inches is 31.75 mm, while 9×19 mm factory ammo seems to be specced to 29.69 mm. Did those extra two millimeters effectively ban 9 mm major, and for how long?

Nov 16, 2002

"

16)     9mm Major for Open Division

Background:  Members have asked BOD to re-evaluate a resolution from 1990 prohibiting the use of 9X19 ammunition loaded to less that 1.250 overall length for use with the 175pf major caliber and also 38 super loading criteria.  A resolution drafted by corporate attorney was presented to Board, see Attachment 15E.

Area 4 Made motion.

Motion:  Move to adopt the resolution presented.

Area 1 Seconded motion.

  Area 8 Made motion to amend original motion.

Amended Motion: Minor change was made to language in the resolution.

Vote carried 8/1.

Are 6 Requests roll call.

1-Y, 2-Y, 3-Y, 4-Y, 5-Y, 6-N, 7-Y, 8-Y, Pres-Y

"

[barry]

First large match I ever shot was a thing called steel and paper challenge  in Topton pa.1989 I think. Was first match Jerry Barnhart used a red dot sight at. Doug Koenig was there. I remember hearing more experienced people say what is Jerry thinking? You can't shoot a scope as fast as iron. Needless to sayhe crushed everyone.  After that every match you shot you saw more and more optics. When Doug won nationals with Springfield p9 next year Bill Wilson cut 2 1911's apart and welded up a hi cap frame for Jerry that took p9 mags .

[Amerflyer48]

Not sure exactly when Dan Serpina built this but I bought it after Hal took it to A Class I think 

I want to say I bought it in 1992-3 maybe 

10mm Delta Elite 

[Amerflyer48]

Also have a Mike LaRocca .38 Super from same time period and can remember a Pin shoot with a .45 comp gun in late 1980s belonging to Stuart Spector   

[Silver_Surfer]

Early 80s for me. Wilson, Boland and Clark had large single chamber comps. 

[aalbert]

This 45 was started when I was in high school in the late 80s and represents a blend of 1987-1994 or so tech, and has basically sat in my safe since then, not fully finished (barrel lockup needs a little tweaking) - plan on having that addressed in the coming weeks. 

 

Caspian frame, Wilson barrel, Clark comp, military slide (aftermarket slides weren't as plentiful back then), Videki trigger, S&A magwell.  It ended up being a mix of Lance Burrows and Alan Tillman who did the work (though I did the trigger work and beavertail). 

 

I ended up picking up a Grieder Custom Series 70 a year or so after I started this project, which is part of the reason that it got shelved (Grieder was fun to shoot, and very accurate - it was more of a bowling pin gun though - no comp, just a muzzle weight, coned barrel, stippled frame, and flared magwell) ... When I finally got into shooting competitively 38 Super was the go to for the big boys (along with Tasco dots), and I opted to stay in Limited (with a Springfield Armory 1911, and later STI 2011 when they first came out). 

 

[Amerflyer48]

Have one of those Clark full profile “Heavy PinMaster” comps new in the bag with barrel and an old Ed Brown Maxi Well the one you cut 1/4” off the frame and TIG the well on and the mainspring housing pin goes through it.  

 One of these days I will finish it as well.  

 

[barry]

Barnhart never used a core that I know of. After Tasco pdp3 he was involved in development of the holo sight with Bushnell and used that.

Edited February 28, 2019 by barry
Mispelling

[yigal]

2 hours ago, barry said:

Barnhart never used a core that I know of. After Tasco pdp3 he was involved in development of the holo sight with Bushnell and used that.

in most pic.J,B. used  tasco  pdp2.

[rishii]

the pdp 3  had a large field of view but the switch would crap out quick, back then there were a couple of shops that would bullet proof those

the pdp2's field of view was small, but the scope would hold up better

[Powder Finger]

still have lying around somewhere a factory pdp2 "Flash Dot" and a Ross Dean tweaked pdp2.

[yigal]

my pdp2 still works. but i don't use it  anymore on the handgun.

[davidwiz]

On 2/28/2019 at 2:35 PM, rishii said:

the pdp 3  had a large field of view but the switch would crap out quick, back then there were a couple of shops that would bullet proof those

the pdp2's field of view was small, but the scope would hold up better

 

Hah, hah, hah!   There was nothing "bulletproof" about them.  I went through at least 3 "bulletproof" PDP3s in about 6 months.  They were utter pieces of crap.  One time, the rheostat knob came off in my hand when I went to turn it on, my first time using it, just purchased "bullet proofed".  Worst of all, the person who "bulletproofed" them, (Ross Dean, IIRC) flat-out refused to warranty/stand behind his work, but would be more than happy to fix them for a price.