rjkelso Posted February 16, 2019 Share Posted February 16, 2019 My question is whether or not to reload when you miss (and you know you've missed) on a field stage. I always reload when I am shooting at steel. But I have tended to not reload between eight shot paper arrays, take the miss and just keep moving. Last weekend I shot a stage clean all but one miss on the swinger. And I knew I missed that shot, but I kept moving to the next array. Should I have reloaded to make up that shot??? My reloads are pretty quick but nothing to brag about. Is it better to reload to get those points? I know it depends on the stage layout etc...but I would love to hear from the more experienced shooters. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Power Jack Posted February 16, 2019 Share Posted February 16, 2019 The only way to tell, is to do the math ... For that one specific stage, what would your score have been in each case - reload and no reload. The correct answer will depend on the specifics of each stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjkelso Posted February 16, 2019 Author Share Posted February 16, 2019 So if I would have reloaded and shot another "A" and added 2.5-3 seconds to the stage...depending on where the swinger was when I re-aquired my sights. The math would tell me if it was a good move if my HF improved. Is that right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mchapman Posted February 16, 2019 Share Posted February 16, 2019 With Practiscore Competetor you can run what if scenarios and if you HF goes up that's better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alecmc Posted February 16, 2019 Share Posted February 16, 2019 9 minutes ago, rjkelso said: So if I would have reloaded and shot another "A" and added 2.5-3 seconds to the stage...depending on where the swinger was when I re-aquired my sights. The math would tell me if it was a good move if my HF improved. Is that right? There is absolutely no way for any of us to tell unless looking at a SPECIFIC stage, seeing what people are running it in, average points, etc etc. You need to determine hit factor - Time and Points , to tell wether or not its worth it or not for that specific scenario. MWP will eventually be here to explain better, he's a nerd like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjkelso Posted February 16, 2019 Author Share Posted February 16, 2019 Thanks for responding. So when you walk a stage beforehand you might discern when/ where in the stage you could afford to take advantage of an extra reload (if neccesary) or when it would hurt you. Or am I thinking too much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alecmc Posted February 16, 2019 Share Posted February 16, 2019 Just don't miss. Problem solved. Seriously though, work out your stage plan and reloads before hand so that you have extra picks (ammo) on hard shots like far steel or hard cover or something. Work out multiple scenarios in your head before hand so that if a certain plan goes bad you go to the contingency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjkelso Posted February 16, 2019 Author Share Posted February 16, 2019 14 minutes ago, alecmc said: ust don't miss. Problem solved. Roger that. Thanks, good advice. Much appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWP Posted February 16, 2019 Share Posted February 16, 2019 5 hours ago, alecmc said: There is absolutely no way for any of us to tell unless looking at a SPECIFIC stage, seeing what people are running it in, average points, etc etc. You need to determine hit factor - Time and Points , to tell wether or not its worth it or not for that specific scenario. MWP will eventually be here to explain better, he's a nerd like that. You know me so well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWP Posted February 16, 2019 Share Posted February 16, 2019 4 hours ago, rjkelso said: Thanks for responding. So when you walk a stage beforehand you might discern when/ where in the stage you could afford to take advantage of an extra reload (if neccesary) or when it would hurt you. Or am I thinking too much? When you’re walking a stage you can plan where to have extra rounds in the gun. The obvious answers are movers and steel. The answer to your question, when to load or take the miss, is all about how long it takes you to make that hit and what the stage HF is. Example: You know you have a miss on a swinger. 2.5-3 seconds is seriously fast to make that up, but we will go with it for the sake of this argument. We will also just pick an arbitrary HF-5. In a 5 hit factor stage a point is worth .2 seconds. To make that reload and extra shot worth that 15 point loss you have to do it in 3 seconds. It’s a wash in this example. But like I said before- that’s a seriously fast time to accomplish that task. Play with those numbers a bit and you will start to see where it may be worth it for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjkelso Posted February 16, 2019 Author Share Posted February 16, 2019 Thanks so much MWP. I know that's super fast so maybe my instincts were right after all. I'll work toward faster reloads and plan ahead better. Thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskan454 Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 As mentioned above, you need to figure out the "par" time. If it's only one make up shot and you are doing a standing reload, the total stage time becomes very important. At Nationals this year I did a standing reload to make up a shot and it turned out to be the same hit factor as if I would have left the steel standing. The hardest part is resisting the natural urge to make up shots, especially on steel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatJones Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 So a miss is -10 points. An alpha is 5 points. That's a 15 point swing. An unplanned reload is usually a little slower, so let's say 3 seconds. A 15 point swing in 3 seconds is a 5 hit factor. If your hit factor on the stage is greater than 5 with the miss, it's not worth making up.If it's paper, do you _know_ it's a miss? If you make up a D with a reload you're definitely dragging your score down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tophernj Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 This is fascinating and all so confusing to a newbie like me. It's amazing what goes into this. Thanks for all the info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swordfish Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 3 hours ago, Tophernj said: This is fascinating and all so confusing to a newbie like me. It's amazing what goes into this. Thanks for all the info. lol I've been doing this a year and I understand the concept in theory, but actually applying it in practice is something I really need to work on. But it separates the men from the boys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mcfoto Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 Sometimes I think all the math involved in scoring takes some of the fun out of it. My usual MO is take a couple shots at steel and move on. If I'm still at that array with ammo in the gun, I'll come back to it. If a Texas Star is present, I save it for last and give myself one reload. Keeping shooting at steel and missing sucks the fun out real quick. Of course, "in the heat of battle," I have also felt the urge to keep slinging lead until they're all down... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tophernj Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 34 minutes ago, Mcfoto said: Of course, "in the heat of battle," I have also felt the urge to keep slinging lead until they're all down... Since I don’t take it at all seriously, this is pretty much my way. I generally leave the match with a smile. That’s success to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 lots of math and long drawn out formulas,, Bottom line is,, Dont do an extra reload to make up a shot in USPSA,,, will allmost NEVER come out ahead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjkelso Posted February 21, 2019 Author Share Posted February 21, 2019 I have never reloaded to shoot paper, only steel. And only to finish up if there is not an eight shot array in the next position or if there is lots of room to reload again before you hit the next array. I try to be mindful of how many rounds are in the gun but it's hard. I usually just want to keep moving. Slow down a little to get those tough hits. Like Alec said "just don't miss". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swordfish Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 1 hour ago, rjkelso said: I have never reloaded to shoot paper, only steel. And only to finish up if there is not an eight shot array in the next position or if there is lots of room to reload again before you hit the next array. I try to be mindful of how many rounds are in the gun but it's hard. I usually just want to keep moving. Slow down a little to get those tough hits. Like Alec said "just don't miss". Is steel somehow scored differently? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pskys2 Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 It's really simple don't hesitate on anything you do. If you reload, just do it, don't worry or think of it until after you're done. Now if you're planning the stage out do this: Your reload time, say it's 2.5 seconds avg Course length how are the times looking for your skill level, say field course 30 seconds Points on course, 150 Right there you can expect the course to be worth 5 point per second A miss is 15 points down / course is worth 5 point per second = the break even is 3 seconds. Do a clean reload, get 5 points and you gained a little, fumble the reload or get a D you're behind. The faster the course the less you want to try. Say the course is getting 1.5 hit factor from the front runners, then you can definitely afford a reload. Just remember a miss is only points, not a DQ, not going to get ostracized, laugh and enjoy the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjkelso Posted February 21, 2019 Author Share Posted February 21, 2019 56 minutes ago, swordfish said: Is steel somehow scored differently? No, I just feel like a dummy when I leave it up. Thanks pskys2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pskys2 Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 4 hours ago, rjkelso said: No, I just feel like a dummy when I leave it up. Thanks pskys2 Your not the only one who hates to leave something showing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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