DIYguy Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 IDescribe.....amazing info! Good to find out before I start running the Dillon based off old settings to replicate ammo that won't run in the CZ. Looks like my settings are good for the Dillon, just need to drop my COL about .005 and see what happens. Thank you and GREAT INFO!! (What...no thumbs up option??) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4n2t0 Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, 4n2t0 said: Try this: LINK With my bullet of choice I need to load to 1.095 for my CZ Shadow. P.S. Make sure your sizing die kisses the shellplate. 1 hour ago, IDescribe said: No, the OAL is simply too long for that chamber with that bullet. We have seen this a bazillion times, most often with CZ, but also a few others. BallisticianX touched on it. There is a maximum OAL that any bullet can be loaded to in a particular chamber before it actually touches the rifling when fully chambered. If you load longer than that, your bullet will engage the rifling, and if it's too far past that point, it will hold the gun out of battery. That is what you are experiencing. In many Western and Eastern European countries, it's illegal to have any bullet type other than RN. FMJ-RN will seat exceedingly long without engaging the rifling -- longer, in fact, than the magazine will allow. Several gun manufacturers in Europe do not account for bullet types other than FMJ-RN, and their throats are a bit shorter than guns built in the U.S., where an unlimited variety of bullet profiles is permitted. This is NOT a problem. It simply means you need to load cartridges a few hundredths of an inch shorter for a CZ (or some Tanfos, some Walthers, and so on and so on) than you would for most pistols. Perfectly normal. Just determine the max OAL for that pistol with whatever bullets you load, and load shorter than that. There are boatloads of threads that discuss how to determine max OAL. I wouldn't be surprised if one was linked to previously in this thread. 28 minutes ago, DIYguy said: IDescribe.....amazing info! Good to find out before I start running the Dillon based off old settings to replicate ammo that won't run in the CZ. Looks like my settings are good for the Dillon, just need to drop my COL about .005 and see what happens. Thank you and GREAT INFO!! (What...no thumbs up option??) Maybe it's the Canadian flag that gets me completely ignored, lol. *EDIT* On second thought maybe it's because I'm an a$$hole. Edited January 23, 2019 by 4n2t0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GringoBandito Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 15 minutes ago, 4n2t0 said: Maybe it's the Canadian flag that gets me completely ignored, lol. *EDIT* On second thought maybe it's because I'm an a$$hole. Don't be so hard on yourself. It's probably both. JUST KIDDING! BTW the info in that link is awesome! Thanks for posting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4n2t0 Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, GringoBandito said: Don't be so hard on yourself. It's probably both. JUST KIDDING! BTW the info in that link is awesome! Thanks for posting. I love it, you're probably right! No problem. Wobbly puts it in a format that's easy to understand so I often link to that information. If for some reason your bullet of choice doesn't easily press into the case when pushed just take it over to the press and starting at max OAL work your way shorter in small increments until the round plunks and spins freely in the barrel. Edited January 23, 2019 by 4n2t0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DIYguy Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 4n2t0: Thanks for the link, very good info in that post. Heading back to the range Friday. Just received the 2nd part of my CZ. When I ordered the Shadow 2 Custom I also ordered a 2nd upper assembly. Had that slide milled for the Carry Optics Division. Last night mounted my C-More red dot so time to zero that one in. Now have one upper that is is open sights and the other that is Red Dot. My old eyes are not happy with open sights anymore. I need to get busy and finalize the Dillon 650 and run some test loads set at 1.065 FP and try again at the range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddc Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 17 hours ago, DIYguy said: .005 is the difference between seating and not? When you are on the knife edge then another 0.005 would be the difference. Heck when you are at the limit another 0.0001 could be the difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bench Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 20 hours ago, 4n2t0 said: No problem. Wobbly puts it in a format that's easy to understand so I often link to that information. If for some reason your bullet of choice doesn't easily press into the case when pushed just take it over to the press and starting at max OAL work your way shorter in small increments until the round plunks and spins freely in the barrel. I've read and re-read, and re-read that great post and having run into the issue you brought up regarding the bullet of choice not 'easily press'ing into the case...that's a very useful addendum to Wobbly's cogent post... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve RA Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 Pick a round that chambers and plunks in the gun that shoots the longer loadings, remove the barrel from the shorter chambered gun and take or send them to a gunsmith and have the chamber/throat reamed for that cartridge. That way you can load one load and have it work in both guns. It may just be the throat that needs reaming, or possibly both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DIYguy Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 Just came in from the shop dong some testing on load lengths and have something new to toss in to the mix. CBTO. When working on my rifle loads I measure off the CBTO (Cartridge Base To Ogive) rather than overall length. Never had to worry about that one for pistol loads. I tweaked the seating depth so I had the exact same COAL for the reload as the Federal Am Eagle which are a known working load, both 147 gr FP loads. The cartridge on the left is factory, the one on the right is the test load (no primer, no powder) The Federal load has a longer taper and a shorter straight length at the case. The reload are Berry's plated which so far I've been happy with. Seems the diameter of the flat tip is also slightly larger on the Berry's than on the Federal. With the exact same length the Berry's bullets still wont seat all the way when dong the barrel plunk test, still a fraction high. (BTW....have several thousand of the Berry's 147s in the cabinet so not quite ready to abandon them.) What I'm seeing is I will have to seat the bullets even deeper in the case to clear the rifling's. After all the work finally getting a load recipe for the 147s worked up looks like I get to start all over. If I seat the bullets deeper that should increase case pressure, velocity readings and POI?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 2 minutes ago, DIYguy said: Just came in from the shop dong some testing on load lengths..................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................... What I'm seeing is I will have to seat the bullets even deeper in the case to clear the rifling's. After all the work finally getting a load recipe for the 147s worked up looks like I get to start all over. If I seat the bullets deeper that should increase case pressure, velocity readings and POI?? I removed all of the non essential wording from your post. (see above) Now. Keep shortening the load until it drops in and falls out without any resistance, spins freely, etc. Then shorten it just a smidge more. THAT IS THE LENGTH THAT WILL WORK IN YOUR GUN. Drop the charge .2 and test. You are overthinking the process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4n2t0 Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 (edited) @DIYguy Measuring/comparing to factory ammo is completely useless unless you're using the exact same components (unlikely). Load as short as you have to load given your barrel/bullet combo and as always start at the minimum charge and work your way up. Edited January 24, 2019 by 4n2t0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenstone Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 (edited) Go here, read it, try it: https://czfirearms.us/index.php?PHPSESSID=f3367ce57eb866416ecfb45f273655b5&topic=34225.msg189131#msg189131 Edited January 25, 2019 by Kenstone Clarity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lll Otto lll Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 Not seating the bullet perfectly straight can cause bulges and feeding issues. So you might find that most rounds will chamber but others will not. Another factor is that mixed brass will have different tolerances. Some brands will plunk others won't. The plunk test is all fine and dandy but are you willing to test every round you produce? Either use a U-die or a Lee factory crimp if you're a novice. Factory ammo is so cheap now I don't even mess with 9's any more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4n2t0 Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, lll Otto lll said: Not seating the bullet perfectly straight can cause bulges and feeding issues. So you might find that most rounds will chamber but others will not. Another factor is that mixed brass will have different tolerances. Some brands will plunk others won't. The plunk test is all fine and dandy but are you willing to test every round you produce? Either use a U-die or a Lee factory crimp if you're a novice. Factory ammo is so cheap now I don't even mess with 9's any more. I use mixed range brass and all my rounds plunk. I test every round I produce but 100 at a time. Factory 9mm is fairly cheap but what if you shoot 20K+ a year? What if you want the load to meet a very specific need? Everyone's needs are different; what works for one person might not work for another. Edited January 24, 2019 by 4n2t0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MemphisMechanic Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 Have your chamber reamed. I had a carbide reamer made and have cut everything I own. They’ll all take a fatnosed 147 (worst ogive ever for loading long) out to 1.150” now. Life is good. I load for feeding reliability and for accuracy. I don’t worry about what fits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDescribe Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 22 hours ago, DIYguy said: I tweaked the seating depth so I had the exact same COAL for the reload as the Federal Am Eagle which are a known working load, both 147 gr FP loads. STOP!!!! I am pretty confident that we discussed how YOU determine YOUR max OAL in a particular gun. Pretty sure the Canadian (you were probably ignoring him, he's Canadian) provided links on how to determine your max OAL. I think someone (possibly the Canadian again) said that you should not compare the dimensions of YOUR load to a factory load. That is, as they say north of the border, useless. YOU determine YOUR max OAL. There is no shortcut, and all the shortcuts you might think of are the the LONG WAY around. There is nothing faster than spending a few extra minutes to get it right the first time. That bullet does look crooked. Different problem, but I would seat ten and check that out. Maybe a trick of the lighting in the photo, maybe not. Also, referencing another comment, there is no 9mm bullet that is so big that it will make the case mouth bigger than will seat in a 9mm chamber. That Berry's is .356. I would crimp to .378 for the time being. That crimp will work perfectly well with that bullet diameter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DIYguy Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 On 1/23/2019 at 8:11 PM, DIYguy said: Just came in from the shop dong some testing on load lengths and have something new to toss in to the mix. CBTO. When working on my rifle loads I measure off the CBTO (Cartridge Base To Ogive) rather than overall length. Never had to worry about that one for pistol loads. I tweaked the seating depth so I had the exact same COAL for the reload as the Federal Am Eagle which are a known working load, both 147 gr FP loads. The cartridge on the left is factory, the one on the right is the test load (no primer, no powder) The Federal load has a longer taper and a shorter straight length at the case. The reload are Berry's plated which so far I've been happy with. Seems the diameter of the flat tip is also slightly larger on the Berry's than on the Federal. With the exact same length the Berry's bullets still wont seat all the way when dong the barrel plunk test, still a fraction high. (BTW....have several thousand of the Berry's 147s in the cabinet so not quite ready to abandon them.) What I'm seeing is I will have to seat the bullets even deeper in the case to clear the rifling's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DIYguy Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 Just saying.... Loaded a new cartridge to the exact same specifications as the factory cartridge that loads perfect and different bullets. Bullet diameter is .3565, case wall thickness is .012, crimp is .378, COAL is 1.065. Did the plunk with the factory round and it drops just fine, the Berry's set a fraction high. The shape of the bullet changes the ogive and where the bullets hits the rifling. I have to set the Berry's deeper for it to clear. The over all length is not the only factor. Bullet is straight, just trying to get a side by side comparison of the shapes of the bullets and how it effects the load. I did the loose bullet barrel test with my M&P Pro to work up the loads for that gun and with the Berry's 147 FP the COL is 1.089. Then Spent LOTS of time working up the recipe for powder charge for best velocity and accuracy. I'm probably gong to end up at 1.055 for COL which is .029 deeper seating depth than my previous loads so get to start all over with load development for the CZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lll Otto lll Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 (edited) 21 hours ago, 4n2t0 said: I use mixed range brass and all my rounds plunk. I test every round I produce but 100 at a time. Factory 9mm is fairly cheap but what if you shoot 20K+ a year? What if you want the load to meet a very specific need? Everyone's needs are different; what works for one person might not work for another. You're not the OP so my comments weren't directed at you. The OP is a novice hand loader who obviously doesn't shoot 20K a year. Plunking doesn't make ammo reliable...proper techniques and components do. You however can plunk all you want but some people's time is more valuable than others so I choose to buy my 9mm now....12,000 rounds alone this past month. Question: you said that "all my rounds plunk"....so why test them? Edited January 25, 2019 by lll Otto lll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DIYguy Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 III Otto III: Just out of curiosity, how long does it take you to shoot that 12,000 rounds? That's a lot of brass!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4n2t0 Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, lll Otto lll said: You're not the OP so my comments weren't directed at you. The OP is a novice hand loader who obviously doesn't shoot 20K a year. Plunking doesn't make ammo reliable...proper techniques and components do. You however can plunk all you want but some people's time is more valuable than others so I choose to buy my 9mm now....12,000 rounds alone this past month. Question: you said that "all my rounds plunk"....so why test them? LMAO. Edited January 26, 2019 by 4n2t0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDescribe Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 23 hours ago, DIYguy said: Just saying.... Loaded a new cartridge to the exact same specifications as the factory cartridge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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