BentAero Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 6 hours ago, Acer2428 said: Because a braced pistol is.... a braced pistol and it's NOT a pistol caliber carbine? I went through the same thing when I first saw the class and only had two braced pistols in my safe.... but I had an M4 stock in my parts bin and a $70 barrel later I was in business. It's either a pistol or it's a rifle/carbine. The ONLY argument I could see against the current rules is if you had a rifle and you CHOSE to use a Sig Brace AS a stock and were still not able to participate. But asking why you can't use a pistol in a carbine class is like asking why PCC's can't compete in Carry Optics... Merriam-Webster defines "carbine" in two ways: 1. a short-barreled lightweight firearm originally used by cavalry. 2. a light short-barreled repeating rifle that is used as a supplementary military arm or for hunting in dense brush. These are just two of at least a half-dozen descriptions of 'carbine''. Problem is, no dictionary (or other source) I've ever found can quantify what length a carbine actually is. Is 'short' 19", or is it 15.9"? Your example of the Sig Brace on a rifle is spot-on. This whole Brace vs. buttstock nonsense is pure semantics. Obtaining a $2, $200, or $2000 'stamp' from the Feds does not change a 10.5" AR pistol into a RIFLE. It's BS! If the modern definition of a rifle is a barrel of 16" or more, then the stamp simply legalizes you to 'shoulder' your pistol. How did the stamp magically change a pistol into a (SB) rifle? We just paid a fee for the right to buy an adjustable length buttstock for our long-barrel pistol! Let's assume for sake of conversation in a fantasy world, that the Feds were completely on-board with common-sense gun laws ;), and as long as the firearm were legally owned they didn't care if it had a 4" barrel or a 16.1" barrel... Wouldn't it make much more sense for Practical Shooting rulebooks to define what we now know as PCC class as being a 'firearm designed/intended to be held/fired with one hand on a grip behind the trigger, and the other hand holding the forestock of the barrel in front of the trigger/ejection port. Barrel must be a min of 8" (pick a number) in length. Shouldering the weapon is optional.' Like a... wait for it... rifle! Pistols being defined/intended to be a firearm held/fired with the support hand overlaying or interlocking the strong hand, i.e. both hands in one place behind/below the trigger.' Holodeck simulation off. You kids get off my lawn! Link to comment
David.Hylton Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 On 12/6/2018 at 4:12 PM, mike NM said: Don't want to get into politics here..... But..... it seems that our friends at BATFE now say a pistol brace isn't a buttstock so a brace can be shouldered/cheeked on a AR pistol , Barrel length is/can be less than 16"...since it's not a rifle but a pistol ....I'd guess the rule maker's at USPSA are in a huddle???... Maybe yet another class?.... Pistol brace open/ pistol brace limited or maybe carry optics brace , open/limited... What say you????....1st. person that comes up with a AR pistol holster wins.. I never really understood the $200 SBR fee thing anyhow, same as a machine gun ... A 6' tall person could dang near hide a 5' ladder under a trench coat if they really tried.... As Clangclang mentioned. The original post is based on a fallacy. Braces are legal as braces. Shouldering a brace leads to legal problems according to the ATF. Here's the letter: https://www.atf.gov/file/11816/download Please read it carefully and completely. Link to comment
Chillywig Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 On 12/7/2018 at 12:42 PM, Patrick Scott said: Every time I see a post about making a division for braced pistols, all I hear is "I have this gun that doesnt fit the rules. Can we make a division for it? I don't want to buy the proper gear to play the game" Best quote of the week!!! Link to comment
Fo0 Posted December 13, 2018 Share Posted December 13, 2018 (edited) PCP Pistol Caliber Pistol is what F1 firearms calls theirs Edited December 13, 2018 by Fo0 Link to comment
mpeltier Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 On 12/10/2018 at 6:09 PM, BentAero said: Merriam-Webster defines "carbine" in two ways: 1. a short-barreled lightweight firearm originally used by cavalry. 2. a light short-barreled repeating rifle that is used as a supplementary military arm or for hunting in dense brush. These are just two of at least a half-dozen descriptions of 'carbine''. Problem is, no dictionary (or other source) I've ever found can quantify what length a carbine actually is. Is 'short' 19", or is it 15.9"? Your example of the Sig Brace on a rifle is spot-on. This whole Brace vs. buttstock nonsense is pure semantics. Obtaining a $2, $200, or $2000 'stamp' from the Feds does not change a 10.5" AR pistol into a RIFLE. It's BS! If the modern definition of a rifle is a barrel of 16" or more, then the stamp simply legalizes you to 'shoulder' your pistol. How did the stamp magically change a pistol into a (SB) rifle? We just paid a fee for the right to buy an adjustable length buttstock for our long-barrel pistol! Let's assume for sake of conversation in a fantasy world, that the Feds were completely on-board with common-sense gun laws ;), and as long as the firearm were legally owned they didn't care if it had a 4" barrel or a 16.1" barrel... Wouldn't it make much more sense for Practical Shooting rulebooks to define what we now know as PCC class as being a 'firearm designed/intended to be held/fired with one hand on a grip behind the trigger, and the other hand holding the forestock of the barrel in front of the trigger/ejection port. Barrel must be a min of 8" (pick a number) in length. Shouldering the weapon is optional.' Like a... wait for it... rifle! Pistols being defined/intended to be a firearm held/fired with the support hand overlaying or interlocking the strong hand, i.e. both hands in one place behind/below the trigger.' Holodeck simulation off. You kids get off my lawn! What length a PCC barrel has, has nothing to do with the discussion. This is not about Carbine vs Rifle. It is the definition of a pistol that is the issue here. The rules are clear, PCC is NOT a division for a Pistol. Its simple really. Link to comment
mwray Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 It seems that PCC has already done enough damage to the sport, so why make it worse? Link to comment
JackinSD Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 1 hour ago, mwray said: It seems that PCC has already done enough damage to the sport, so why make it worse? I would like to understand what you are saying. Granted, it takes a little longer to brief a stage and a little longer to run a stage. On the flip side, it has brought a few new shooters into the sport. Can you be specific on what damage it has done to the sport? A generalized statement, means so little. Link to comment
NoKimberDave Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 Reminds me of a buddy who always threatens to shoot USPSA. I get a lot of questions, because a short perusal of the actual rules and gear requirements is too brainy. Q: "Hey, can I use a Mossberg Shockwave with brace, extended tube and red dot in Open"? A: "No. No you can not use shotguns in a pistol match" Q: "OK, well, then I'll use my Dan Wesson in SS..." A: "No, because you ported it, installed a comp, and it has a red dot. It's a SA only trigger." Q: "Ok, maybe I'll stick to the USPSA rifle match, and just use my AR with brace..." A: "Nope, pistols are not allowed at rifle matches" Q: "DANG STUPID RULES!! WHY DO THEY MAKE IT SO DIFFICULT?? OKAY, I guess its carry optics then. I'll use my 19". A: "Unfortunately, you made a "roland special" so you will have to shoot Open Minor....." Etc etc etc etc. Link to comment
bwikel Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 2 hours ago, mwray said: It seems that PCC has already done enough damage to the sport, so why make it worse? They see me trollin............. Link to comment
BartCarter Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 5 hours ago, mwray said: It seems that PCC has already done enough damage to the sport, so why make it worse? Yeah, the guys with the $5,000 open guns hate it when a $600 PCC betters their scores. Link to comment
jnr88 Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 PCC shooters used to shoot at carnivals. They can win all the bunny rabbits. They're sure faster than me. Link to comment
rudder Posted December 14, 2021 Share Posted December 14, 2021 Braced AR's and such should be allowed in USPSA and IDPA. My reasoning is: 1. The more they are used and purchased, the more mainstream they will become. The large numbers of AR15's out there has figured into our keeping them from a ban, such as "Commonly used rifle, etc.". 2. My CZ Evo 3 S2 micro travels with me most everywhere. My AR's don't, due to size. It really is a defensive weapon. (Second to P90). 3. More common use won't impact the political scene. They just want to ban everything, so lets have some fun. 4. Some, like me, really enjoy the short braced pistols. I love running a course with the Evo. 5. There really isn't a reason not to allow them in matches. I tend to only go to matches where I can use them. So other lose my money. Just my thoughts. BR Link to comment
Racinready300ex Posted December 14, 2021 Share Posted December 14, 2021 6 hours ago, rudder said: Braced AR's and such should be allowed in USPSA and IDPA. My reasoning is: 1. The more they are used and purchased, the more mainstream they will become. The large numbers of AR15's out there has figured into our keeping them from a ban, such as "Commonly used rifle, etc.". 2. My CZ Evo 3 S2 micro travels with me most everywhere. My AR's don't, due to size. It really is a defensive weapon. (Second to P90). 3. More common use won't impact the political scene. They just want to ban everything, so lets have some fun. 4. Some, like me, really enjoy the short braced pistols. I love running a course with the Evo. 5. There really isn't a reason not to allow them in matches. I tend to only go to matches where I can use them. So other lose my money. Just my thoughts. BR Meh, I don't think it really matters. If someone wants to shoot they'll set up a gun for it. I don't think the guys who just want to occasionally hit up a match, but only if the rules are changed to fit their equipment of choice, opinions matter. If we chase that group we will endlessly be chasing our tails in search of being more inclusive. Do braces really matter in the match? I'd say no not really. But I get national level organizations not wanting to go there since it can be a murky area with the ATF. Local outlaw BS matches can do a lot more and I'm sure they'll let you compete. Link to comment
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