9.1.3 Question

[JAFO]

While taking my RO recert exam, a question occurred to me.  9.1.3 states:

 

Prematurely Patched Targets - If a target is prematurely patched or taped, which prevents a Range Official from determining the actual score, the Range Officer must order the competitor to reshoot the course of fire. However, if following the scoring of a target by any assigned Range Officer, the target is patched or taped by anyone other than a Range Officer, the score will stand as called regardless of the competitor's opportunity to see the target in question and the competitor will not be permitted to appeal the score as called. Reviewing previous score sheets is prohibited; targets must be scored as is, using the actual target as the basis for the scoring call.

 

It's the highlighted text that prompts my question.  What happens if it is a Range Officer that patches the target?  Does it still stand?  If so, why the distinction between an RO or another shooter if the score stands regardless?

 

 

As a side note, I saw this in the draft book:

9.1.3 Prematurely Patched Targets - If a target is prematurely patched or taped, which prevents a Range Official from determining the actual score, the Range Officer must order the competitor to reshoot the course of fire. However, if following the scoring of a target by any assigned Range Officer, the target is patched or taped by anyone other than a Range Officer, the score will stand as called regardless of the competitor's opportunity to see the target in question and the competitor will not be permitted to appeal the score as called. Reviewing previous score sheets is prohibited; targets must be scored as is, using the actual target as the basis for the scoring call. Suggested edit: If a target is prematurely patched or taped which prevents a range official from determining the actual score, the Range Official must determine who patched or taped the target. If it was not a Range Official, the target will be scored as presented. If, however, it was a Range Official and the target score was not properly noted a reshoot will be ordered. Reviewing previous score sheets is prohibited; targets must be scored as is, using the actual target as the basis for the scoring call.

 

The highlighted text, if accepted, would basically mean that a target prematurely patched by another shooter means two mikes for the shooter, rather than a reshoot.

[Lee Cabana]

This situation actually happened to me at last year's Iron Sights Nationals.  I was CRO - last squad, last shooter.  I was scoring targets, and an RO was following me taping.  Last target was an Alpha/Mike and it was taped.  The shooter protested that since he didn't have a chance to see the target, it was therefore prematurely patched.  My ruling was that the target was not prematurely patched and a correct score was called.

[HoMiE]

I guess it is because you have two eyewitnesses not just one RO making they call. 

[Sarge]

6 minutes ago, HoMiE said:

I guess it is because you have two eyewitnesses not just one RO making they call. 

Hmm... That should not matter at all. A range officers call should not need any corroboration. This is why only certified CRO/RO are used in larger matches. If a certified RO makes a call and is 100% sure of the call then it should be accepted without question. 

  And before somebody challenges with “what about a cheating RO?” , we all know that is extremely rare and eventually gets worked out. 

[DKorn]

51 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Hmm... That should not matter at all. A range officers call should not need any corroboration. This is why only certified CRO/RO are used in larger matches. If a certified RO makes a call and is 100% sure of the call then it should be accepted without question. 

  And before somebody challenges with “what about a cheating RO?” , we all know that is extremely rare and eventually gets worked out. 

 

This is also why, as the RO scoring the targets, I will make sure the shooter is made aware of anything unusual (like a mike when the rest of the stage was almost all 2A or A/C). I will also overlay anything I’m unsure of (it’s rare, but it happens) in order to make darn sure everything is scored correctly. 

[robchavous]

 
This is also why, as the RO scoring the targets, I will make sure the shooter is made aware of anything unusual (like a mike when the rest of the stage was almost all 2A or A/C). I will also overlay anything I’m unsure of (it’s rare, but it happens) in order to make darn sure everything is scored correctly. 

A safe practice even at club matches. Let the shooter see anything questionable and you'll likely not have many issues.

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[Lee Cabana]

2 hours ago, DKorn said:

 

This is also why, as the RO scoring the targets, I will make sure the shooter is made aware of anything unusual (like a mike when the rest of the stage was almost all 2A or A/C). I will also overlay anything I’m unsure of (it’s rare, but it happens) in order to make darn sure everything is scored correctly. 

Agreed - that’s best practices. 

[rustychev]

4 hours ago, Lee Cabana said:

This situation actually happened to me at last year's Iron Sights Nationals.  I was CRO - last squad, last shooter.  I was scoring targets, and an RO was following me taping.  Last target was an Alpha/Mike and it was taped.  The shooter protested that since he didn't have a chance to see the target, it was therefore prematurely patched.  My ruling was that the target was not prematurely patched and a correct score was called.

 

That's not how i read this change. 

 

As I read it your are the scoring RO I am a competitor not the shooter and I tape a target before you see it you would then have to score as 2 mikes because that is what you can see.

 

The way I read the edit is that they are talking about a target that has not yet been scored.

Edited October 10, 2018 by rustychev

[DKorn]

11 hours ago, robchavous said:

A safe practice even at club matches. Let the shooter see anything questionable and you'll likely not have many issues.

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It’s amazing how far a simple “Hey you’ve got a mike over here, do you want to see it before they patch it?” goes to keep people happy. Heck, I’ll even do that as the person pasting targets if it seems like the shooter might want to see it. 

[robchavous]

 
It’s amazing how far a simple “Hey you’ve got a mike over here, do you want to see it before they patch it?” goes to keep people happy. Heck, I’ll even do that as the person pasting targets if it seems like the shooter might want to see it. 

At big majors it's understandable not to when you've got a tight schedule with a lot of people to get through. Generally in those instances the stage CRO will tell you during the brief to have a delegate to walk with the scorer since since some targets will be scored and patched before you have a chance to see it.

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[Sarge]

38 minutes ago, robchavous said:

At big majors it's understandable not to when you've got a tight schedule with a lot of people to get through. Generally in those instances the stage CRO will tell you during the brief to have a delegate to walk with the scorer since since some targets will be scored and patched before you have a chance to see it.

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At majors is exactly where shooters or a rep should get to see targets before scoring. I also never advocate pre scoring at majors. This is a recipe for failure. When I run a shooter at a major I clear them and then proceed with scoring. They either follow or not.

[robchavous]

At majors is exactly where shooters or a rep should get to see targets before scoring. I also never advocate pre scoring at majors. This is a recipe for failure. When I run a shooter at a major I clear them and then proceed with scoring. They either follow or not.

When I CRO stages at majors I absolutely prescore when possible. Tell the shooters it's going to happen and to have a delegate if they want walk with the scoring RO.

Some stage designs don't lend well to it, but ones with lots of down range movement do and it can save a lot of total time on the match. After having to shoot stages in the dark one year at a major due to inefficient ROs, I want to be as efficient as possible.

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[Sarge]

43 minutes ago, robchavous said:

When I CRO stages at majors I absolutely prescore when possible. Tell the shooters it's going to happen and to have a delegate if they want walk with the scoring RO.

Some stage designs don't lend well to it, but ones with lots of down range movement do and it can save a lot of total time on the match. After having to shoot stages in the dark one year at a major due to inefficient ROs, I want to be as efficient as possible.

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Meh, to each their own. I may see it someday as being more efficient but it would have to be on a stage the likes of which I’ve never seen. That’s because I have yet to run a stage that takes too much time to score properly.

[motosapiens]

sarge and rob are both right.  Sometimes it makes sense to score a couple targets early. When I do this at a major we do the following:

a) announce it clearly during the stage brief.

b) call out the pre-scored targets as soon as the shooter ULSC's, and before they are taped so there is an opportunity to look if necessary.

[JAFO]

But regardless of whether you pre-score or not, why make the distinction that the score will stand if taped by anyone other than a Range Official?

 

And I really don't agree with the proposed edit of counting prematurely patched targets as mikes if they were taped by a non-RO.  I've had to make shooters re-shoot a stage numerous times because well-meaning newbies have taped before I could score.  Making that mistake count as mikes towards the shooter will not make the taper any friends.

[Gary Stevens]

1 hour ago, JAFO said:

But regardless of whether you pre-score or not, why make the distinction that the score will stand if taped by anyone other than a Range Official?

 

And I really don't agree with the proposed edit of counting prematurely patched targets as mikes if they were taped by a non-RO.  I've had to make shooters re-shoot a stage numerous times because well-meaning newbies have taped before I could score.  Making that mistake count as mikes towards the shooter will not make the taper any friends.

 

I could be wrong, but I don't think it is calling for two mikes if you have not scored the target. A non-scored target is a re-shoot.

[IHAVEGAS]

On 10/9/2018 at 2:06 PM, JAFO said:

. However, if following the scoring of a target by any assigned Range Officer, the target is patched or taped by anyone other than a Range Officer, the score

 

Troy could clarify, looks to me like just unfortunate wording. I think the intent is once it is scored it is scored regardless of whether you saw it before somebody pasted it. 

[MemphisMechanic]

2 hours ago, JAFO said:

But regardless of whether you pre-score or not, why make the distinction that the score will stand if taped by anyone other than a Range Official?

 

@JAFO and @IHAVEGAS because... cheaters.

 

It is not rare for the shooter’s buddy to preamturely paste a target when he sees the run went horribly. They forgot an entire array or the gun double-fed? Time to slide in, tape a target, exit stage left, and deny all knowledge. Presto! The shooter gets a reshoot.

 

There will no longer be any incentive to do this. In fact, you and your friends will now be vigilant to ensure no one tapes unscored targets after each others runs.

 

Edited October 11, 2018 by MemphisMechanic

[JAFO]

53 minutes ago, Gary Stevens said:

 

I could be wrong, but I don't think it is calling for two mikes if you have not scored the target. A non-scored target is a re-shoot.

 

The suggested edit calls for a reshoot if it was a Range Official who prematurely patched the target.  If a non-RO did it, it is scored "as presented", which to me seems to mean that if I don't see holes, it's two mikes.

 

Suggested edit: If a target is prematurely patched or taped which prevents a range official from determining the actual score, the Range Official must determine who patched or taped the target. If it was not a Range Official, the target will be scored as presented. If, however, it was a Range Official and the target score was not properly noted a reshoot will be ordered. Reviewing previous score sheets is prohibited; targets must be scored as is, using the actual target as the basis for the scoring call.

[MemphisMechanic]

Yes exactly.

 

If your buddy tries to tape a target - which previously got you a reshoot - he’s only giving you a couple of mikes now.

 

They’re closing a potential cheating loophole.

 

If the RO’s mess up, you still get that reshoot because your cheating buddy system was obviously not involved.

 

Make sense to everyone now?

 

EDIT:

 

1. Yes. I have seen this flagrantly done. In person. The ROs just couldn’t prove it was malicious since we can’t read minds.

 

2. And this is far from the first time a sport has had to punish the vast majority (no more reshoots for honest pasting errors) due to the actions of one rotten apple.

 

Edited October 11, 2018 by MemphisMechanic

[Southpaw]

So because a few people cheat, now if someone accidentally prematurely pastes one of my targets I get mikes?! I've had my targets prematurely pasted by accident at majors and wouldn't have been happy having to take mikes for that. I've never had one of my targets intentionally prematurely pasted...I guess I don't have as good friends as these cheaters 

[Gary Stevens]

2 hours ago, JAFO said:

 

The suggested edit calls for a reshoot if it was a Range Official who prematurely patched the target.  If a non-RO did it, it is scored "as presented", which to me seems to mean that if I don't see holes, it's two mikes.

 

Suggested edit: If a target is prematurely patched or taped which prevents a range official from determining the actual score, the Range Official must determine who patched or taped the target. If it was not a Range Official, the target will be scored as presented. If, however, it was a Range Official and the target score was not properly noted a reshoot will be ordered. Reviewing previous score sheets is prohibited; targets must be scored as is, using the actual target as the basis for the scoring call.

 

It says "after being scored", etc. RO scores the target, Joe Shooter paste target before competitor has seen it, the score stands as called.

[JodiH]

The "suggested edit" language accidentally got left in the present draft of the rulebook.  If you look at the accompanying change log, it says "Left 9.1.3 unchanged."  

[d_striker]

On 10/11/2018 at 6:31 PM, Gary Stevens said:

 

It says "after being scored", etc. RO scores the target, Joe Shooter paste target before competitor has seen it, the score stands as called.

 

 

I'm reading it like @JAFO is also.  Looks like 2 mikes if a non-RO prematurely pastes a target that has not been scored yet.  I'm not seeing your reference of "after being scored."  The first sentence of the suggested edit is saying if a prematurely taped target prevents the RO from determining the score, which implies that said target has not yet been scored.

 

 

Suggested edit: If a target is prematurely patched or taped which prevents a range official from determining the actual score, the Range Official must determine who patched or taped the target. If it was not a Range Official, the target will be scored as presented.

 

 

[HoMiE]

2 minutes ago, d_striker said:

 

 

I'm reading it like @JAFO is also.  Looks like 2 mikes if a non-RO prematurely pastes a target that has not been scored yet.  I'm not seeing your reference of "after being scored."  The first sentence of the suggested edit is saying if a prematurely taped target prevents the RO from determining the score, which implies that said target has not yet been scored.

 

 

Suggested edit: If a target is prematurely patched or taped which prevents a range official from determining the actual score, the Range Official must determine who patched or taped the target. If it was not a Range Official, the target will be scored as presented.

 

 

The first section deals with what to do if a non RO scores target, you get the reshoot ifnscore cannot be determined. I think unsportsmanlike conduct is the call of shooter and buddy are trying to be scrupulous about it.