KAK Shockwave Blade Pistol/SBR Grip - Shoot from Shoulder? Legal USPSA?

[RaylanGivens]

 

The KAK Shockwave Blade pistol stabilizing system has become very popular for circumventing the ATF class 3 small barrel rifle (SBR) laws...  Many people add them to a SBR and shoot them like a normal AR-15 or AR-9...  Several people have showed up at our range, expecting to shoot them from their shoulder without any ATF paperwork...  They quote or have copies of the KAK paperwork listed at the site below to back up their claims.

 

https://www.kakindustry.com/shockwave

 

The KAK web site posted correspondence between themselves and the ATF regarding the Shockwave Blade pistol stabilizing system...  They also posted a letter stating short barrel AR-15's could be shot from the shoulder with the Shockwave Blade...  They stated that they talked to an ATF official and that an official letter confirming their statement would follow from the ATF...  Nothing official from the ATF has been posted.

 

Does a Shockwave Blade make an SBR legal to shoot from the shoulder as KAK states?

 

If it does, is it legal to shoot a SBR with a Shockware Blade in USPSA matches?

[MacLethal]

Following.. from what I understood, firing from the shoulder with a KAK blade or a brace was ok as per the letters from ATF, but USPSA took a stance as not ok for competition if I remember correctly. It would be a good thing to know for sure though as it’s been a while since the ATF letters have been written.


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[mwray]

Buy a tax stamp and a regular stock you will be good.

[JAFO]

If the device on the buffer tube it is marketed as a PISTOL stabilizing brace or device, then the gun is still a pistol and not a carbine.  While it's my understanding that ATF no longer frowns upon firing any brace/stabilizing device from the shoulder, it is still NOT legal in USPSA.  It has nothing to do with what ATF says, it has to do with the fact that it's not a stock.

 

From App D8 (emphasis mine):

 

6	Must have stock attached and be capable of being fired from shoulder position. **Note: Sig Brace and any variant thereof is not allowed** Handgun to carbine conversions are allowed, provided they meet the criteria above.**see Special Conditions**

Edited July 2, 2018 by JAFO

[Flatland Shooter]

Probably changed but the original BATF letter indicating the incidental touching of the shoulder with the pistol brace was no longer illegal was brand specific.  It only applied to the one manufacturer that fought it.

 

That's been a while so the letter may have been amended to include braces by all manufacturers.

 

As for doing a trust and paying the stamp tax, an SBR will be a consideration if the USPSA approves the use of suppressors.  It would make an awesome combination.

Edited July 2, 2018 by Flatland Shooter

[JAFO]

52 minutes ago, Flatland Shooter said:

As for doing a trust and paying the stamp tax, an SBR will be a consideration if the USPSA approves the use of suppressors.  It would make an awesome combination.

 

Don't you think you'd run into reshoots from not picking up shots?  I can't see them ever allowing it, especially since a lot of clubs are having that problem with unsuppressed PCCs.  I've turned up the sensitivity on my timer to help with that issue, but I'm always watching to see if it picks up the Open gun in the next bay over.

[Flatland Shooter]

22 minutes ago, JAFO said:

 

Don't you think you'd run into reshoots from not picking up shots?  I can't see them ever allowing it, especially since a lot of clubs are having that problem with unsuppressed PCCs.  I've turned up the sensitivity on my timer to help with that issue, but I'm always watching to see if it picks up the Open gun in the next bay over.

 

One of the local clubs has a falling steel match and not only allow but encourages the use of a suppressor.  Holding the timer close to the ejection port does the trick.

[Sarge]

Not legal in USPSA according to Troy.

[PatJones]

 
One of the local clubs has a falling steel match and not only allow but encourages the use of a suppressor.  Holding the timer close to the ejection port does the trick.

As long as you're cool with me leaning over your shoulder for the whole stage to keep the timer next to the ejection port.

[Hammer002]

14 hours ago, Flatland Shooter said:

 

One of the local clubs has a falling steel match and not only allow but encourages the use of a suppressor.  Holding the timer close to the ejection port does the trick.

 

I would absolutely encourage my competitors to shoot suppressors.  More dot movement, more recoil, less velocity (especially for the falling steel part of the discussion), and less reliable both due to so much gas coming back through the rear of the gun, and it getting so much dirtier so much faster.  Absolutely....for the competition.  And most prob take suppressors on and off without rezeroing.  All that and wearing out on first stage of day due to reshoots cause timer not picking up?  Got my vote.  Lol.

 

As to th OP, has to be legal sbr.  Will likely always be that way.  This one, I think they got right.

Edited July 3, 2018 by Hammer002

[gerritm]

29 minutes ago, Hammer002 said:

 

I would absolutely encourage my competitors to shoot suppressors.  More dot movement, more recoil, less velocity (especially for the falling steel part of the discussion), and less reliable both due to so much gas coming back through the rear of the gun, and it getting so much dirtier so much faster.  Absolutely....for the competition.  And most prob take suppressors on and off without rezeroing.  All that and wearing out on first stage of day due to reshoots cause timer not picking up?  Got my vote.  Lol.

 

As to th OP, has to be legal sbr.  Will likely always be that way.  This one, I think they got right.

Kind of harsh.

 

I have shot this match many times and they have no issues with the timers for people using suppressors or linear comps. One of the best matches around. Just adjust the timer sensitivity up. Hold on the ejection port side. 

 

Best part is it gives shooters with suppressors a match to have fun and shoot. Maybe they don't win but they all seem to be having a blast. 

 

gerritm

[Darqusoull13]

I know a couple guys that win shooting suppressed. I also know a couple PCC's that can, and have, run 4 shooters in a row suppressed in a 250 round match. Folks that run those matches aren't affiliated with USPSA because suppressors are not allowed in USPSA. Conservatively, I'd estimate USPSA has lost about $3500 in activity fees from those matches. That might not seem like a lot, but it's free money they don't have to do a damn thing to earn. 

Back on topic, the pistol brace is as asinine as the idea that we have to pay an additional tax for a short barrel. I wouldn't advocate USPSA officially allowing them in matches. I also wouldn't care at all if MD's and RO's didn't look closely at whether a shooter was in compliance with that rule. "Looks like a stock to me" 

[Nathanb]

I find way less muzzle movement with a can hanging off the end too. Sure it gets dirty faster but that’s really not an issue over a few hundred rounds. 

[RaylanGivens]

18 hours ago, JAFO said:

If the device on the buffer tube it is marketed as a PISTOL stabilizing brace or device, then the gun is still a pistol and not a carbine.  While it's my understanding that ATF no longer frowns upon firing any brace/stabilizing device from the shoulder, it is still NOT legal in USPSA.  It has nothing to do with what ATF says, it has to do with the fact that it's not a stock.

 

From App D8 (emphasis mine):

 

6	Must have stock attached and be capable of being fired from shoulder position. **Note: Sig Brace and any variant thereof is not allowed** Handgun to carbine conversions are allowed, provided they meet the criteria above.**see Special Conditions**

 

Yes, thanks for pointing that out...  It's been a while since I read through the PCC addendum, but it's quite clear that devices like the Shockwave Blade are not considered stocks by the USPSA and, therefore, not legal for the PCC division.

 

That answers that half of my question.

[RaylanGivens]

 

Quote

 

Shockwave Technologies

ATF Says Shockwave Blade Okay to Shoulder.

I just got off the phone with a very nice gentleman at ATF Tech Branch---who was fielding these calls today. (He was, understandably, very well versed on the subject---and very nice about it even though he's been on the phone all day, repeating himself ad nauseam.) I identified myself and asked him specifically if the letter that's making the rounds is limited to one company's products--or if it applies to all pistol stabilizing braces. He said: "The letter covers all pistol stabilizing braces, including the Shockwave Blade." So that settles that.

He then gave me two points of further guidance for our customers:

1. By "permanent affixing," ATF considers that to be adding permanent Loctite to the large set screw that secures the Blade into the dimples in the KAK tube. As long as you don't red Loctite the set screw in place, ATF considers it to be "temporarily placed" and "perfectly okay to shoulder." (He didn't beat around the bush on this topic.)

2. "Length of pull"---for lack of a better word regarding pistol braces---begins to enter a "gray area" above 13.5". Above 13.5" begins "to enter shoulder stock area." (His words. I believe this has to do with the "comfortableness" aspect.) On an AR-15 pistol, the "length of pull" for the Blade is approximately 13.13", so no issues there. But if you use the Blade on a firearm that requires a large adapter of some sort, please make sure that you only use the dimples up to the point that you remain below the 13.5" length. Stay below 13.5" and according to ATF, it's okay to shoulder a Shockwave Blade.

So there you have it. Anything you read to the contrary on a web forum, social media site, or industry blog is simple misinformation by people who are not being completely honest.

You can find the Shockwave Technologies Blade here: http://shockwavetechnologies.com/site/?page_id=2316

 

 

The above quote is from the KAK web site I linked to in my first post...  Although the post starts out with "ATF Says Shockwave Blade Okay to Shoulder." KAK provides no information on who at the ATF issued this statement...  Additionally, there is no statement released from the ATM backing this statement up.  KAK stated that the ATF would issue a statement confirming their "anonymous" ATF phone call, but they have never posted one.

 

My concern is that people continue to show up at our range wanting to shoot SBR's with Shockwave Blade devices...  They all have printouts of the same paperwork and consider it the gospel...  The ATF has never confirmed that point of view.

 

It seems that shooting a SBR with a Shockwave Blade one handed with the Shackwave Blade used as a cheek weld, or a forearm brace with or without a strap to the forearm is legal...  Once you put the Shockwave Blade up to your shoulder, you are shooting an unregistered short barrel rifle...  Wich is not legal.

 

 

[Flatland Shooter]

2 hours ago, Hammer002 said:

 

I would absolutely encourage my competitors to shoot suppressors.  More dot movement, more recoil, less velocity (especially for the falling steel part of the discussion), and less reliable both due to so much gas coming back through the rear of the gun, and it getting so much dirtier so much faster.  

 

Not always true.

 

Last Fall I got to shoot a man on man shootoff with a supplied SBR with a home built (legal) suppressor.  Extremely little dot movement and it swung like a dream. Along with the owner using the gun in the main match, it probably had over 500 rds put through it that day with zero malfunctions.

 

I've spent a lot of time and some money trying to duplicate the feel of that gun without the stamp tax.  The search continues.

[Darqusoull13]

You will need a JP bolt, SCS and a 115 grain Blue Bullet loaded with 3.0 grains of Bullseye. File your stamp (s) because that one is also a 5" barrel...

[JAFO]

3 hours ago, gerritm said:

Best part is it gives shooters with suppressors a match to have fun and shoot. Maybe they don't win but they all seem to be having a blast. 

 

Maybe it's just me, but I don't follow that logic.  Suppressors aren't permanent.  A shooter with a suppressor can just as easily take it off and still shoot.  They may WANT to shoot with it, but it's not like they can't shoot without it. 

[JAFO]

19 hours ago, Flatland Shooter said:

 

One of the local clubs has a falling steel match and not only allow but encourages the use of a suppressor.  Holding the timer close to the ejection port does the trick.

 

How are those matches set up?  I've seen several on Youtube, but they are almost always using specified shooting boxes.  While I think it could work fine in Steel Challenge, I don't think staying close to the ejection port would be viable in USPSA field courses.

[gerritm]

These are not steel challenge. Set up more like a USPSA field course without paper targets.  Some shooting box type stages. Have had a couple of hoser steel matches with 50 steels per stage. They are a blast. Do not seem to have any problems with the timers or running the shooters. The normal falling steel match has about 25 steels per stage. 

 

gerritm

[Darqusoull13]

We were fortunate to gain experience RO'ing 22's with suppressors early in our shooting careers. Heck, some of our RO's still frequently shoot a 22 match at a different range. Compared to a 22LR rifle with a suppressor, a 9mm PCC action is downright loud. RO'ing suppressed shooters in a field course is not this impossible task some make it out to be. It is exceedingly fun when someone shows up with a Salvo 12 though 

[Flatland Shooter]

2 hours ago, Darqusoull13 said:

You will need a JP bolt, SCS and a 115 grain Blue Bullet loaded with 3.0 grains of Bullseye. File your stamp (s) because that one is also a 5" barrel...

 

Definitely sub-minor.  But if it knocks down the steel, that's all that matters.  And I just happen to have a couple pounds of Bulleye (probably been sitting on the shelf since 2005).

 

[Hammer002]

4 hours ago, RaylanGivens said:

 

 

The above quote is from the KAK web site I linked to in my first post...  Although the post starts out with "ATF Says Shockwave Blade Okay to Shoulder." KAK provides no information on who at the ATF issued this statement...  Additionally, there is no statement released from the ATM backing this statement up.  KAK stated that the ATF would issue a statement confirming their "anonymous" ATF phone call, but they have never posted one.

 

My concern is that people continue to show up at our range wanting to shoot SBR's with Shockwave Blade devices...  They all have printouts of the same paperwork and consider it the gospel...  The ATF has never confirmed that point of view.

 

It seems that shooting a SBR with a Shockwave Blade one handed with the Shackwave Blade used as a cheek weld, or a forearm brace with or without a strap to the forearm is legal...  Once you put the Shockwave Blade up to your shoulder, you are shooting an unregistered short barrel rifle...  Wich is not legal.

 

 

 

In what division???  Can’t shoot it in PCC.  Must have stock attached, be in lawful compliance, and may be a pistol conversion, meaning it is now a legal RIFLE.  All other divisions are pistol divisions and require a holster and subject to all handgun rules.  The letter posted has zero to do with the uspsa nor does how it’s shot.  It’s about the rifles physical characteristics and legality AS A RIFLE.  At best the company does not even market the product as a pistol conversion, only something applied to a ar pistol, of which cannot be shot in PCC.  The question has been answered many times before this thread and remains the same.  No.  Easiest way to understand it is only legal rifles able to be shot in PCC.

 

As far as the suppressors go, my post above was meant a little tongue in cheek.  The reality is just to admit shooting with a suppressor is only for the cool factor, or the tacticool factor.  A suppressor on a rifle, from a performance perspective, goes against everything you want in competition.  Doesn’t matter who is doing what, where in anecdotal experiences, the reality is everything about a suppressor is a hinderance to competition and the shooter would be doing that much better, no matter how well they are currently, without it.  Including all the issues I listed above, you would have to run the loads so much hotter than necessary to make power factor and gain nothing from doing so.  As a matter of fact, doing so would only further emphasize the issues stated.  The point is, nothing is gained using a suppressor.  Nothing.    Hearing protection still has to be worn.  Lol

Edited July 3, 2018 by Hammer002

[Darqusoull13]

Loads do not have to be modified at all, so you're wrong there. The folks at Dead Air have thoroughly debunked the myth that MODERN, QUALITY suppressors have adverse effects on velocity of the projectile. 

I prefer shooting my suppressed PCC to my unsuppressed PCC for performance. I've done the practice to know why I prefer the can and when the comp still has an advantage in specific matches. I also prefer a suppressor to a comp on a rifle or a "real rifle" (bigger than 223) and at matches that allow it this year, I'm running a can. Not everyone agrees with my perspective. Do I think comps are effect? Hell yes. Is a can a better choice for applications where there is minimal gas to run a comp, indoors or near other solid structures? Maybe. 

However, I would encourage you to run 500 rounds of real long range loads through a comped rifle in front of a conex, between highway barricades, under a covered structure, with a partner, prone in fine sand and through a culvert. Then practice another couple hundred rounds in an indoor shoot house and get back to me if you think there's nothing gained from running a suppressor. Lol? 

On 7/3/2018 at 5:21 PM, Hammer002 said:

 

In what division???  Can’t shoot it in PCC.  Must have stock attached, be in lawful compliance, and may be a pistol conversion, meaning it is now a legal RIFLE.  All other divisions are pistol divisions and require a holster and subject to all handgun rules.  The letter posted has zero to do with the uspsa nor does how it’s shot.  It’s about the rifles physical characteristics and legality AS A RIFLE.  At best the company does not even market the product as a pistol conversion, only something applied to a ar pistol, of which cannot be shot in PCC.  The question has been answered many times before this thread and remains the same.  No.  Easiest way to understand it is only legal rifles able to be shot in PCC.

 

As far as the suppressors go, my post above was meant a little tongue in cheek.  The reality is just to admit shooting with a suppressor is only for the cool factor, or the tacticool factor.  A suppressor on a rifle, from a performance perspective, goes against everything you want in competition.  Doesn’t matter who is doing what, where in anecdotal experiences, the reality is everything about a suppressor is a hinderance to competition and the shooter would be doing that much better, no matter how well they are currently, without it.  Including all the issues I listed above, you would have to run the loads so much hotter than necessary to make power factor and gain nothing from doing so.  As a matter of fact, doing so would only further emphasize the issues stated.  The point is, nothing is gained using a suppressor.  Nothing.    Hearing protection still has to be worn.  Lol

 

[Sarge]

40 minutes ago, Darqusoull13 said:

Loads do not have to be modified at all, so you're wrong there. The folks at Dead Air have thoroughly debunked the myth that MODERN, QUALITY suppressors have adverse effects on velocity of the projectile. 

I prefer shooting my suppressed PCC to my unsuppressed PCC for performance. I've done the practice to know why I prefer the can and when the comp still has an advantage in specific matches. I also prefer a suppressor to a comp on a rifle or a "real rifle" (bigger than 223) and at matches that allow it this year, I'm running a can. Not everyone agrees with my perspective. Do I think comps are effect? Hell yes. Is a can a better choice for applications where there is minimal gas to run a comp, indoors or near other solid structures? Maybe. 

However, I would encourage you to run 500 rounds of real long range loads through a comped rifle in front of a conex, between highway barricades, under a covered structure, with a partner, prone in fine sand and through a culvert. Then practice another couple hundred rounds in an indoor shoot house and get back to me if you think there's nothing gained from running a suppressor. Lol? 

 

Uh oh...