Ooops!

[mpolans]

The thing is, if it caused by the powder laying across the bottom of the case, how can that be in a 9x19 or .38 super loaded to major? Heck, just about every major load I know of is on the verge of being compressed, if not compressed.

[BritinUSA]

Looking at the pictures of the barrel I would suggest it's a problem with the barrel and nothing to do with the load.

[Vlad]

I dont mean to argue with people with a LOT more experience then I, but I never bought the low charge detonation thing. My 9mm production load is 3.1gr of TG. Even in the 9mm case 3.1gr of TG is like a dusting, and it clearly lays under the flash hole when laying on its side. I suspect this is true of almost any load with Titegroup, and sure as heck that the 4.2 grain (If I remember correctly) that my .45 load has takes almost no space in the giant ashtray that the .45 case is. And Titegroup is not a slow powder.

On the rifle side, the levergun folks do all kind of odd things to make 30/30 loads that shoot like .22s. I mean they use every combination of powders and volumes you can think of even including using pistol powders in rifle cases (eek!) and they dont blow themselves up unless they overpressure the case by using TO MUCH powder as opposed to LITTLE.

Also If I remember correctly an number of loading manuals mention that no testing done by powder companies ever reproduced such a thing. I would think for liability reasons they would quickly publish MINIMUM loads next to the max if they thought that would be a problem.

What I do believe is that people have blow up guns by using the wrong powder and blamed it on the low charge thing. Hey I've only used 20 grains of Titegroup in this .308 case and the Max load with Varget is 45gr. So it couldnt possible be that 20gr of TG would create to much pressure, it must have detonated.

However I am really curious if anyone has a provable incident of that. I would think if a IPSC type charge can do it we would see it a lot more and it would be repeatable. Almost all of us shoot the same handfull of loads or thereabouts. I'm not trying to start and argument and if I'm wrong please tell me, I just dont think there is much to that theory.

[shred]

I think the "SEE" effect is probably real. I also think it's very rare and a whole lot of double-charges, squibs and so-on are blamed on it.

After all, it's never the owner or reloader's fault, right?

[fishnfst]

Could this have been caused by a low powder charge in the round. I was told by a friend who has been shooting and reloading for a long time that a low powder charge can cause a lot of damage. This is how he explained it to me:

    When a round is loaded with a powder charge that is low enough that the powder level runs below the primer when the bullet in horizontal ie.. in the chamber, then when the primer is ignited the sparks disperse over the top of the powder which causes the powder to burn from the top down. Instead of from back of the case to the front. He said this changes the way the force is applied by the gasses, it can cause the gasses to push up more than against the bullet.  He showed me a revo with the top half of the cylider and the top strap blown completely off, and said that this is what caused the failure.

  Is this a viable possibility or should in brain dump this idea to make room for more useless info?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Used to be quite prevalent in .38 special loads with bullseye... Reduced loads were the worse.. Y ou would get detonation instead of ignition.....

[Vlad]

Is it not possible that the lighter the load, the less likely it is that a double charge will be noticed, specially in a very deep case like the .38 special?

Again, not trying to argue, but I would think if this was a reproduceble phenomenon, powder manufacturers would have managed to reproduce it and publish minimum charges.

[Nolan]

"Shoot!" magazine published an article by the editor where they blew up 3 cowboy single action .45 Long Colts. (Geez, it takes 3 blown up guns before they stop using the same batch of ammo!) To make a long story short, they were using very small powder charges with cast lead bullets. The wax lube on the lead bullets built up on the seating die and eventually bullets started to occasionally stick to the seating stem so they would pull back out of the case. Next case in line they hand start a bullet in place, the seating stem pushes that bullet down and the increased force leaves the stuck bullet seated in the normal position on top of the first bullet. Two bullets in a .45 Long Colt case doesn't leave much space for the 'small' powder charge and "Kaboom!"

I suspect the same thing happened with the PPC crowd that was blowing up guns with 2.8 grains of Bullseye and a 148 grain wadcutter bullet. They just refused to notice all the primed, empty cases, and spilled powder in the loaded cartridge bin!

That just can't happen in a 38 Super even with 115 grain bullets, the case just isn't tall enough.

Nolan

[GuildSF4]

The only people who have duplicated a small charge detonation in my understanding was in artillery shells (i.e 3", 5", ...) if memory serves that testing was done by the US Navy.

Still curious though since I didn't see any plastic deformation on the barrel that implies a different cause of the failure. (Would actually need to see and have analyzed the parts to check that though.)

[Clay1]

Shooter Grrl did you send the barrel / gun off to someone to determine the cause? We would all like a more deffinative answer if and when you get one.

[lynn jones]

there will probably never be an answer on this problem.

1. the barrel maker will blame the gunsmith

2. the gunsmith will blame the barrel maker

3. the gunsmith and barrel maker will blame the gunowner.

in the end sg still loses.

fwiw,

lynn

[Clay1]

You're probably right Lynn. But one of them might surprise you. It never hurts to ask. Look at Shooter Grrl's experience with C-more. You never know until you ask what people might or might not do. Just don't get your hopes up.

Rick

[Shooter Grrl]

I was seriously hoping you all would be able to tell what caused it

The frame and mount went to Johnny to use in the new gun, IF he can straighten them. The C-More is getting rebuilt (not for free Rick!) We do still have the barrel, but who would you send it to? This particular barrel manufacturer is well known for never admitting to errors in their process. If I was still in the Bay Area I coulda asked Failure Analysis Associates to look at it

Lynn really has the right of it, I don't think we'll ever get a definitive answer. I know that it wasn't our reloading process and that's all that really matters at this point.

I do have to say though, that every single person I've talked to has been GREAT in helping me get parts together so that I have a gun for the Nationals! There really has been no finger pointing or blaming, just a real pulling together to "get 'er done". Makes me really damned proud to be a shooter!

[Matt Cheely]

So does anyone think a few hundred rounds of normal pressure factory ammo would have caused this same thing, if the cause was a defective barrel?? Then at least it wouldn't be the owners fault and someone else would have to be responsible. I mean factory ammo is prefect isn't it....

I would just get so raving mad if my brand new $3000 gun blew up on the first rounds through the gun...

My condolences!

[Clay1]

The lady joined this site in 2001 and is going to shoot nationals. I bought bet my best Glock that she knows what she is doing.

[Hey QuicksDraw!]

Glad your O.K. Must have been scary...

[Matt Cheely]

The lady joined this site in 2001 and is going to shoot nationals.  I bought bet my best Glock that she knows what she is doing. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I did not mean it as she dosen't know what she's was doing, I'm very sure she does, but that then the gunsmith / barrel maker couldn't blame it on the ammo. I'm about to finally get my own open gun and don't want it to break on me!

[hopalong]

GRRL,

While we were talking about this "incident" at Memphis last weekend and you said all hands and fingers were accounted for and that RB was going to use the STRAY CAT I got the fealing that all was OK.

NOW after a little time, I do have one more comment to add.....

IF you need another gun.....

I have 5 spare REVOLVERS that need some RANGE time !!!

You want me to bring you one next week for BARRY ????

Good seeing you and RB !!!!

Give "EM" Hell at Barry !!!

SAM

[mcoliver]

Ouch! Glad you were okay Grrrl.

[Paul B]

I'm not a metalurgist, but don't the metal striations in the first close up look wierd? Looks almost like the metal was in layers. Can't hurt to talk to the recalcitrant barrel maker??? Specially if the same loads shoot fine in other guns.

[John Heiter]

I'm not saying that there was anything wrong with the barrel that would cause an explosion but I did notice one thing that appears to be wrong with it. I got curious about the manufacturer since everyone was dancing around the name so I did some snooping. The patent number, clearly visible in one of the shots thanks to some really incredible close up photography (what camera?), doesn't seem to have anything to do with pistol barrels. I did a patent search on it and it came back as the number for a mounting system for pressurized vessels(steam tanks, etc.) to be used on board a ship. Weird.

[supercomp9]

Hmmmm I do not know where you did your search at ...

But I just placed a patent search and came up with all the

correct info on the pistol barrel patent information...

Date of patent was June 23 1992.

and I like Mr Heiter would like to know what Camera

you were using ..

The wife told me that we can invest in one major item

at tax time next year and we are both wanting a New Camera.

Not to HiJack the thread....

Thanks and glad to hear that you are getting the gun fixed .

SuperComp9

[John Heiter]

Well, I thought I did it right. I went to http://www.uspto.gov/ and did a patent number search. Anyway, glad to hear that I did something wrong. Did you have to specify a patent category to get those results?

Thanks,

John

[supercomp9]

http://www.us-patent-search.com/

here is the site that I used...

I first did a search of the us patent and in that link

was one of them... turns out you have to registar

to use the service... when all done I typed the patent

number in and it gave all the information...

who , when , where and so forth....

[shred]

USPTO is where it's at (or you could ask any Open shooter.. the "Danger Exhaust Ports, Read Manual" warning is very distinctive)

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?...RS=PN/5,123,328

[Harmon]

did you find any of the other brass that came out of the gun that day??

if they all look normal but that one, i would suggest it was the load that caused the failure.

now if they all look like they are getting closer to KB ...its a different story.

the half charge of slow powder could be the voo-doo that causes a KB.

for reference, titegroup was designed not to be position sensitive most of the powders used in open would have no applications that would result in a shifting powder charge.

If the other cases look normal, i would suggest that Mr. Benny Hill was likey correct.

seeing those pics make me feel sick...if that were mine, i would cry.