Which Recoil System? JP SCS Gen 2 vs MBX PCC Buffer System

[BigBamBoo]

You bet. I am in the same boat....just trying to figure this all out and what works best. Just installed a Taccom buffer system and will be shooting it tomorrow for a Steel shoot.

 

I also ordered a Blitzkrieg buffer and some springs. So I will have some things to try.

 

 

[10cup]

Yeah I have several springs etc coming sure hope it works. I'm sure it will be an improvement.  Especially excited about limiting some of the bolt travel. 

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: Looking at all this stuff I am thinking you are way over thinking this. What may work for one guy may not be the best for everyone. I have let many people shoot my setup and they all seem to like it. Is it the best, I am not sure but it is what I am using and it seems to work and work well. Lighter shooters, older shooters may need a different setup than a young big strong guy. If you like to play with different setups, loads and buffers than you have found the division for you. Thanks, Eric

[TRUBL]

1 hour ago, BigBamBoo said:

You bet. I am in the same boat....just trying to figure this all out and what works best. Just installed a Taccom buffer system and will be shooting it tomorrow for a Steel shoot.

 

I also ordered a Blitzkrieg buffer and some springs. So I will have some things to try.

 

 

That will be an interesting comparison.......I suspect that you will not see much difference.

[BigBamBoo]

Hi Tim.

 I have two PCC rigs I am working with, so one will have your system (coupled with your ULW upper) and one the Blitz. So it will be a fun comparison.

Edited July 18, 2017 by BigBamBoo

[Maxamundo]

8 hours ago, 10cup said:

 

Max, any idea if anyone is offering the bumper like above.  I did find the wave spring (free sample) but not sure what to do for a buffer/bumper.  (The blue part that the wave spring rides against.

 

Might be out of your price range

[Maxamundo]

5 hours ago, Aircooled6racer said:

Hello: Looking at all this stuff I am thinking you are way over thinking this. What may work for one guy may not be the best for everyone. I have let many people shoot my setup and they all seem to like it. Is it the best, I am not sure but it is what I am using and it seems to work and work well. Lighter shooters, older shooters may need a different setup than a young big strong guy. If you like to play with different setups, loads and buffers than you have found the division for you. Thanks, Eric

 

+

[Maxamundo]

13 hours ago, nickbfishn said:

Took my rig to the range Friday and match in Saturday. Using 130pf ammo and the jpscs with 90% spring, 3 SS & 1 tungsten weights. The bullets are 147 flat nose bayou bullets. The gun ran flawlessly and the dot movement is minimal. Practing double taps at 35' I am able to keep them well within the A! I'm pretty happy with it now. 

 

I still plan to work on the barrell extension like Max showed. And I'm going to change from N320 and work up a load with a slower burning powder and see what else I can do. 

 

Any suggestions on slow burning powder?

 

If you can single sight picture 2A at 35 why are you still experimenting. it is fun though so go ahead I guess. I will probably keep changing things forever

I wouldn't ramp your barrel either unless you start getting feeding issues. Also I like a fast powder for snappier recoil. User preference. You won't see any benefit in compensator pressure or anything. Recoil will just feel a bit slower.

Edited July 18, 2017 by Maxamundo

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: My vote goes for the faster powders also since they burn cleaner than slower powders at minor power factors. If you want softer go with heavier bullets. If you want a little faster/harsher go with light bullets going faster. I like Tite Group or Winchester Super Target the best. I tried HS-6, Silhouette, 3N37, Auto Comp, Green Dot, Blue Dot.  I may try 20/28, Red Dot, Clays, 300MP since I have these for shotgun loads. I may also try Pro Reach and E3, if they don't work I can use them in my 28 gauge. I am sticking with my setup for now and just have to relearn how to go fast with a rifle. Thanks, Eric

[nickbfishn]

6 hours ago, Maxamundo said:

 

If you can single sight picture 2A at 35 why are you still experimenting. it is fun though so go ahead I guess. I will probably keep changing things forever

I wouldn't ramp your barrel either unless you start getting feeding issues. Also I like a fast powder for snappier recoil. User preference. You won't see any benefit in compensator pressure or anything. Recoil will just feel a bit slower.

Nailed it, doing it just for kicks. Besides if I don't experiment with other loads I'll constantly ask myself "what if". And n320 is pricey and aa#7 isn't, so there's always that need to save a buck LOL.

 

My fear with not ramping the barrel is that I don't want it to start having issues in the middle of a match. 

 

So so let me ask you this, Max, if it runs flawless now, do you think I could potentially upset the balance by ramping?

[nickbfishn]

6 hours ago, Maxamundo said:

Might be out of your price range

????

[TRUBL]

10 hours ago, BigBamBoo said:

Hi Tim.

 I have two PCC rigs I am working with, so one will have your system (coupled with your ULW upper) and one the Blitz. So it will be a fun comparison.

I'd be interested to know.......considering mine is about 1/2 the cost. 

I'm gonna bet there is no difference on the ULW upper. Especially with 124gr ammo

 

Edited July 18, 2017 by TRUBL

[gerritm]

I am running the Taccom  ULW 2-piece buffer now with a JP barrel and have  the Taccom adjustable going in my new ULW  ambi mag release PCC I am finishing with Taccom ULW upper. I had the JP adjustable buffer and really couldn't tell the difference between the 2 so I sold the JP. Several others have shot mine and are impressed with how soft it shoots and how the dot stays on target. Should have the new ULW PCC running by this weekend with the new buffer and will report on it.

 

gerritm

[10cup]

8 hours ago, Maxamundo said:

Might be out of your price range

Yeah, I'll have to get permission from my wife!  LOL  Thanks!

[Patrick Scott]

15 hours ago, 10cup said:

Looks like the larger shoulder of the buffer is attached to the smaller part that normally would be inside the buffer spring?  

That is my buffer setup in the pic. I simply de-pinned and popped out the blue rubber bumper from a standard carbine buffer, dumped out the weights, used a plumbers pipe cutter to cut down the buffer body, reinserted the rubber bumper, cross drilled it and re-pinned it.  From there its just a matter of trimming the rubber bumper until you get the desired stroke length.  I don't remember if Max mentioned it, but you need a Vltor A5 tube to stuff all that into.  The NFA spacer will probably work, I just used what I had on hand. 

[10cup]

1 minute ago, Patrick Scott said:

That is my buffer setup in the pic. I simply de-pinned and popped out the blue rubber bumper from a standard carbine buffer, dumped out the weights, used a plumbers pipe cutter to cut down the buffer body, reinserted the rubber bumper, cross drilled it and re-pinned it.  From there its just a matter of trimming the rubber bumper until you get the desired stroke length.  I don't remember if Max mentioned it, but you need a Vltor A5 tube to stuff all that into.  The NFA spacer will probably work, I just used what I had on hand. 

Thank you very clear what you did. 

thanks very much. 

[Maxamundo]

If you use a Smalley CS100-H5 spring instead of H7, and 1 quarter, you can fit everything in a carbine tube and still lock back. If you use the H7 in a carbine tube, I'd do a quarter and no spacer, and you won't lock back but you'll still reset the trigger.

I run an A5 tube on both my rifle and PCC for increased LOP

[Maxamundo]

10 hours ago, nickbfishn said:

Nailed it, doing it just for kicks. Besides if I don't experiment with other loads I'll constantly ask myself "what if". And n320 is pricey and aa#7 isn't, so there's always that need to save a buck LOL.

 

My fear with not ramping the barrel is that I don't want it to start having issues in the middle of a match. 

 

So so let me ask you this, Max, if it runs flawless now, do you think I could potentially upset the balance by ramping?

 

I don't know how much you suck with a dremel. I think it would be hard to f*#k up though.

I use prima V, it's like $13.25/lb. And it's basically the same burn rate as N320.

[Maxamundo]

Easy way to remember smalley springs:

CS100-H7 - This is the "operates in bore" diameter, 1.00 inches. So we want 1" because that's the diameter of the buffer tube.
CS100-H7 - This is the compressed force. L = Light/12lbs. We don't use that because it would be pre-compressed under the normal buffer spring weight. M = Medium/18lbs. Adds some cushioning but it's a little bouncy. I found I liked the longer M springs for shortening the SCSs. H = Heavy/25 lbs. These are more like spacers with the benefit of softening the bottom out. I run an H in my PCC with the hydraulic buffer.

CS100-H7 - This is the length of the spring. It's also tied to many other things, like how many coils it has, the spring constant, compressed height, etc. H7 is the longest heavy spring they sell. M11 is the longest medium spring they sell. In general I found the longer springs to soften the recoil more.

[10cup]

2 minutes ago, Maxamundo said:

Easy way to remember smalley springs:

CS100-H7 - This is the "operates in bore" diameter, 1.00 inches. So we want 1" because that's the diameter of the buffer tube.
CS100-H7 - This is the compressed force. L = Light/12lbs. We don't use that because it would be pre-compressed under the normal buffer spring weight. M = Medium/18lbs. Adds some cushioning but it's a little bouncy. I found I liked the longer M springs for shortening the SCSs. H = Heavy/25 lbs. These are more like spacers with the benefit of softening the bottom out. I run an H in my PCC with the hydraulic buffer.

CS100-H7 - This is the length of the spring. It's also tied to many other things, like how many coils it has, the spring constant, compressed height, etc. H7 is the longest heavy spring they sell. M11 is the longest medium spring they sell. In general I found the longer springs to soften the recoil more.

Thanks Max that explains a lot, talked to Smalley and they are sending me a sample of the CS100-M11  Didn't know about the other springs.  I'll see if they will send me a CS100-H7 too.   I do have the A5 buffer tube as well so I can go either way. Very helpful, thank you very much for sharing.

[TRUBL]

The spring rate on that is 54# per inch and the load is 25#......which would be at solid height. The preload if at free length is zero, but there is a preload that is probably close to 16# which would roughly be the preload of the recoil spring you are using. Upon firing, both springs will start to compress, with the recoil spring compressing at a greater rate (duh).....the actual second stage is that wave spring that will compress another 1/8" to 1/4" at the end of the stroke. So, yes you do have a simple two stage recoil spring......NOW, adding the hydraulic buffer adds to me....an unknown load which is also happening at the end of the recoil stroke......this will only add to the load of the 2nd (or is it 1.5) stage and will go solid I suspect before the wave spring collapses (if it does collapse). All in all a solid system. Interestingly.....the taccom system has a 2nd stage that can be set from 0# to 11# preload with a final second stage load of 13# to 25# of force. It gets there the same way at the end of the stroke in a carbine buffer tube. The main difference in the systems is going to be preload of the recoil spring (carbine or rifle) and the weight of the buffer 6.3 ounces.

 

I may need to compare these two systems......in theory, they might be the same......the unknown for me, is the spring rate of the hydraulic buffer and travel.

 

I suspect that the wave spring really never goes solid during recoil as with ours set at 25#, with 124's and a rifle spring....the BHO does not activate, which means the bolt is not going back all the way to the end of the buffer (Yes, our system can run a rifle spring and not go to solid Height). I set them at 23# or one turn out from max. Same is true with 147's and a carbine spring set up.....weird but true.

 

Good job Max!!

[BigBamBoo]

So I shot my PCC in our local steel match this afternoon with the Taccom adjustable buffer. 

 

It replaced a JP SCS....and man....I forgot how annoying the spring sound is. I replaced the spring the buffer came with, with a JP spring but still "springy" sounding.

 

I am running WWB 115 grain ammo. It seems to shoot a little softer then the JP SCS. Now just a note on the SCS I had in the rig. It is the original. JP sent me a "red" spring about 6 months after I received the SCS, but I never replaced the spring it came with.

 

I watched a video that my buddy shot of me on one stage and it does seem a little flatter shooting just compared to the prior video I looked at with th SCS.

 

 Need more trigger time and maybe play around with different springs. I was shooting with the newly install Hiperfire ECL so there are some things I need to get use to.

[KzBoost]

6 hours ago, Maxamundo said:

If you use a Smalley CS100-H5 spring instead of H7, and 1 quarter, you can fit everything in a carbine tube and still lock back. If you use the H7 in a carbine tube, I'd do a quarter and no spacer, and you won't lock back but you'll still reset the trigger.

I run an A5 tube on both my rifle and PCC for increased LOP

 

If I use the CS100-M11-S17 for the JP SCS Buffer setup, will this cause the LRBHO to not function?

[Maxamundo]

12 minutes ago, KzBoost said:

 

If I use the CS100-M11-S17 for the JP SCS Buffer setup, will this cause the LRBHO to not function?

 

I believe so. When I tried shorter H springs that blocked the JP SCS travel, I noticed almost no difference. The longer mediums really seemed to make a difference for me though (M10/M11). But I think their compressed height is too long for LRBHO. 

I would imagine LRBHO is only important in the upcoming Pro-Am, and IDPA though. For USPSA you shouldn't ever be running out.

Edited July 19, 2017 by Maxamundo

[KzBoost]

1 minute ago, Maxamundo said:

 

I believe so. When I tried shorter H springs that blocked the JP SCS travel, I noticed almost no difference. The longer mediums really seemed to make a difference for me though (M10/M11).

 

Dang, That's a bummer. Guess I'll have to figure something else out. We're only allowed 10rds in our mags here when we compete, so there are a ton of mag changes. LRBHO is kinda useful in a lot of those situations so I kinda wanna keep that feature. Time to experiment I guess.+