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Bull barrels

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Just my thoughts.

My thoughts, why have a rule book of when you read it you can't tell what is legal??

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The ACCU was explicitly ruled to be not legal for IDPA. 

Old rule book, people are using them now.

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Can I show up with my Glock 40, that has some features I've been told we're not legal, and just shoot to compete, understanding if there were any prizes, trophies, etc, I would not be eligible to win anything?

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IDPA HQ position paper on P320 X-five came out today, and I quote.

While IDPA does not normally comment on the legality of specific gun models, preferring to let the listed rule criteria do its job, there have been a few extra questions on the X-Five.

First, the P320 X-Five delivers with four 21 round magazines. While nice, these magazines when inserted make the gun too large to fit the IDPA box. You will have to purchase 10 or 17 round magazines to be legal for IDPA.

The X-Five is advertised as having a bull barrel. There is no rule against a bull barrel, only heavy or coned barrels.

The X-Five comes from the factory with an added magazine funnel. This funnel does fit the IDPA box and would be legal in ESP. However, this funnel would have to be removed to shoot the gun in SSP. It is a single Allen screw and can easily be accomplished by the end user.

The last issue revolves around the advertised "removable grip weight." IDPA has reviewed the gun and come to the conclusion that this weight is an integral part of the grip from the factory and legal. The weight is not easily removed and reinserted by the end user without the possibility of voiding the manufactures warranty. It is not an "add on weight" as defined under rule.8.1.8. So the gun is legal as it comes with the factory weight. That being said, removing the weight and replacing it with a heavier weight would be illegal.

 

So, you are OK with the ballast weight.

Apparently, all a maker has to do to get in any diameter barrel he wants is to be sure it is described as a "bull" barrel and the words "heavy" or "cone"  do not appear anywhere in his advertising.

The funnel is kind of weird, with tortured logic.  You may not add a funnel to a SSP, so you have to take off a factory part.  Riiight. Wonder where you would be if the funnel had been molded in as part of the "modular" butt section?

Question to users:  Will a 10 round Klinton Klip or standard 17 round magazine seat into the funnel?  Somebody said you have to grind on the floorplate. 

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On 5/29/2017 at 11:00 PM, Magnumdood said:

Can I show up with my Glock 40, that has some features I've been told we're not legal, and just shoot to compete, understanding if there were any prizes, trophies, etc, I would not be eligible to win anything?

some or most will let you shoot that in a Not for Competition division. 

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22 hours ago, Jim Watson said:

Apparently, all a maker has to do to get in any diameter barrel he wants is to be sure it is described as a "bull" barrel and the words "heavy" or "cone"  do not appear anywhere in his advertising.

I know I've commented on this before. Sig's description of the X5's bull barrel is just marketing hype. It's diameter is no where near that of a true cone or heavy barrel. Just not enough meat on it.

The funnel is kind of weird, with tortured logic.  You may not add a funnel to a SSP, so you have to take off a factory part.  Riiight. Wonder where you would be if the funnel had been molded in as part of the "modular" butt section?

Molded as part of a gun (not removable) is totally different than an addon part. I don't see any logic variance there. But maybe I'm missing the point.

Sounds like the SIG marketing team has done a great job. They've created buzz and we've all taken the bait.

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On ‎7‎/‎4‎/‎2017 at 10:41 AM, Jim Watson said:

The X-Five is advertised as having a bull barrel. There is no rule against a bull barrel

 

Let me put in a little emphasis here.  Sig says it is a bull barrel.  Diameter not stated by SIG or IDPA, they say it is a bull barrel, bull barrels are ok.  So where are they going to cut me off if I have a barrel that meets YOUR definition?

 

On ‎7‎/‎4‎/‎2017 at 10:41 AM, Jim Watson said:

The X-Five comes from the factory with an added magazine funnel

 

Doesn't matter if it is molded on or screwed on, if it comes that way, it looks "stock" to me. 

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On 5/15/2017 at 6:42 AM, Racinready300ex said:


Old rule book, people are using them now.
 

 

What people are using and what's legal are two different things.  Plenty of people were using ACCU-Shadows against the rules and a ruling had to come down to prevent people from showing up with them to nationals.  Here's the rule from the new rulebook:
 

8.2.1.3 SSP Excluded Modifications (Non-Inclusive list):

      A. Externally visible modifications other than those listed in the Permitted Modifications section.

 

Milling out a slide to a take that 1911 bushing is still illegal.  What a local match director allows (or even understands well enough to allow or disallow) and what's legal are, sadly, not the same thing.

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9 minutes ago, IDescribe said:

 

What people are using and what's legal are two different things.  Plenty of people were using ACCU-Shadows against the rules and a ruling had to come down to prevent people from showing up with them to nationals.  Here's the rule from the new rulebook:
 

8.2.1.3 SSP Excluded Modifications (Non-Inclusive list):

      A. Externally visible modifications other than those listed in the Permitted Modifications section.

 

Milling out a slide to a take that 1911 bushing is still illegal.  What a local match director allows (or even understands well enough to allow or disallow) and what's legal are, sadly, not the same thing.

 

I'm not going to disagree, but we're talking about a game where "Bull" barrel's are legal because the are not "heavy" barrels.

 

Apparently people have got word from the HQ that it's legal and are running them. Does it make sense? Nope. I don't feel like looking for the threads, I don't shoot one so I don't care enough. At the end of the day the gun doesn't matter.

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On ‎5‎/‎29‎/‎2017 at 11:00 PM, Magnumdood said:

Can I show up with my Glock 40, that has some features I've been told we're not legal, and just shoot to compete, understanding if there were any prizes, trophies, etc, I would not be eligible to win anything?

 

At a Level 1 match (local) you wouldn't have any problem shooting in the SPD division.  The Glock 40 doesn't fit "The Box".

 

At a Level 2 and higher, I doubt it as you would be taking away from the legal gun slots.

 

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There is no rule against a bull barrel, only heavy or coned barrels.

When I look at the rules and the position statement; I begin to think the STI Eagle or edge with a bushing-less barrel fits with this interpretation of the rules.

 

STI advertises the Eagle and Edge as having a "bull barrel". The ones I have don't resemble cones and STI clearly defines the barrel as a "bull barrel."

 

The rules not listing bull barrel and stating heavy and/or cone without a barrel bushing; leads me to wonder what about a bull barrel without a barrel bushing? I may have overlooked it but I can't fin a rule stating a bushing is required or that a bull barrel without a bushing is illegal.

8.1.8 Non-IDPA-Legal Features and Modifications for All Divisions

C. Heavy and/or cone style barrels without a barrel bushing except as allowed in ESP, CCP, Bug and CDP divisions with length restrictions.

8.2.2.2 ESP Permitted Features and Modifications (Inclusive list):

T. Heavy or cone style barrels on firearms with barrel length of 4.25” or less.

What do you think?

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What do you think?


I think idpa makes it up as they go along as it suits them.

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8 hours ago, RGinIdaho said:

There is no rule against a bull barrel, only heavy or coned barrels.

When I look at the rules and the position statement; I begin to think the STI Eagle or edge with a bushing-less barrel fits with this interpretation of the rules.

 

STI advertises the Eagle and Edge as having a "bull barrel". The ones I have don't resemble cones and STI clearly defines the barrel as a "bull barrel."

 

The rules not listing bull barrel and stating heavy and/or cone without a barrel bushing; leads me to wonder what about a bull barrel without a barrel bushing? I may have overlooked it but I can't fin a rule stating a bushing is required or that a bull barrel without a bushing is illegal.

8.1.8 Non-IDPA-Legal Features and Modifications for All Divisions

C. Heavy and/or cone style barrels without a barrel bushing except as allowed in ESP, CCP, Bug and CDP divisions with length restrictions.

 

 

8.2.2.2 ESP Permitted Features and Modifications (Inclusive list):

 

T. Heavy or cone style barrels on firearms with barrel length of 4.25” or less.

 

What do you think?

So what you're saying is that when compared to a bushing barrel, you believe that the bushingless barrel of the Edge looks exactly the same as the other? Even Stevie Wonder could see that the Edge has a heavy barrel.

 

Youre welcome to chop your Edge down to  4.25 or less though. 

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When I look at them in 40 or 9, they look heavy, bushing or not. How heavy is heavy and who decides?

 

What the statement for the P320-X inferred was that if the manufacturer says "bull barrel:" not heavy or coned; then the barrel is legal. It doesn't say anything about how it looks to the SO, MD, me or Stevie Wonder!

 

Rules are either consistently applied or; IDPA...

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44 minutes ago, RGinIdaho said:

When I look at them in 40 or 9, they look heavy, bushing or not. How heavy is heavy and who decides?

 

What the statement for the P320-X inferred was that if the manufacturer says "bull barrel:" not heavy or coned; then the barrel is legal. It doesn't say anything about how it looks to the SO, MD, me or Stevie Wonder!

 

Rules are either consistently applied or; IDPA...

Then bring your Edge to Nationals and let me know how that arguement goes for you.

 

See you there. ;)

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2 hours ago, RGinIdaho said:

What the statement for the P320-X inferred was that if the manufacturer says "bull barrel:" not heavy or coned; then the barrel is legal. It doesn't say anything about how it looks to the SO, MD, me or Stevie Wonder!

 

 

That is what I took away from that release.  You are not allowed a Witness Stock I because it is cataloged with a "cone barrel."

So may you shoot a STI with cataloged "bull barrel"? 

Probably not.

IDPA tortured logic will take the STI back to its distant 1911 ancestor and require a bushing barrel of .58" diameter, full stop. 

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The rule is meant to prevent a gear race where everyone buys a heavy cone barrel pistol to get as much weight as possible out front.  That's it.  If a pistol manufacturer notes that their pistol is a bull barrel, and that barrel is not especially heavy and does not have a taper/cone that puts a significant amount of weight out front, then it doesn't violate the rule.  
 

Edited by IDescribe

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Is the P320 X-5 bull barrel larger in diameter than a base model P320's?

If so, your argument fails and IDPA is showing favoritism. 

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8 hours ago, v1911 said:

Then bring your Edge to Nationals and let me know how that arguement goes for you.

 

See you there. ;)

I think we all know IDPA rules and interpretations are inconsistent to the point no one would take that chance. Not even me...

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This is the P320 X-5 barrel.  There's nothing about that that would indicate to me that it's a heavy barrel, and it's clearly not a cone barrel.  There's no conflict with the rule here.

 

bull.png.bb665febdae3e8e8baf8fae8ef72228c.png

 

 

On the other hand, if your barrel looks something like this:

 

limited_barrel.jpg.8fda32955b3dbbb8f8e2d598ce248780.jpg

 

Then you are in violation of the rule.  I really don't see the rule as being particularly unclear.

 

 

 

 

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On ‎7‎/‎9‎/‎2017 at 12:43 AM, wtturn said:

 


I think idpa makes it up as they go along as it suits them.

 

 I think this is as true now as it was back then. I thought the position on the add on magwell vs. integral part of the grip thing - part was interesting. To me, "bull" just meant thick walled. Coned was, well, coned. As far as trying to thwart any forward weight shift bias, I would think they'd be similar but guess not. It's funny how the "simple" games always seem to have the most complicated rules in the name of being "simple". 

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On 1/15/2018 at 1:10 AM, k80clay said:

It's funny how the "simple" games always seem to have the most complicated rules in the name of being "simple". 

 

This, so much.  Its silly how difficult they try to make things. To me, if it comes stock, off the shelf, it should be allowed to run in a "stock" division.  Just have a weight and size limit and then if a manufacturer builds it, its good to go.  No reason to make it so difficult.

 

ESP can then be the single action division and any other gun that people want to lightly modify. 

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So factory guns with factory cone barrels > 4.25'' are still no go even if they make weight and fit in box? 

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