teros135 Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 I knew somebody would turn this into a 5-page semantics discussion. If it's bad stage design... ...don't do it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_striker Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 (edited) 4 minutes ago, teros135 said: I knew somebody would turn this into a 5-page semantics discussion. If it's bad stage design... ...don't do it! As much as I agree with you, bad stage design often isn't illegal... Edited March 22, 2017 by d_striker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 Not to be overly pedantic, but it appears some are confusing "location" and "view." Both are described in the glossary. If I take 2-3 steps I am in a new location. A new view requires that something has to have interrupted my old view of the targets (such as a wall or other prop) and the new view has a different array of targets available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 (edited) 7 minutes ago, d_striker said: As much as I agree with you, bad stage design often isn't illegal... We can only wish... (Was at a L1 recently that had 3 different colored plates on the plate rack, including blue & red, and required 3 scoring hits on the paper targets (best 2 in the body (Comstock) but only one in the head box (Virginia), and shoot only at certain color plates from each of 3 boxes. Our heads were spinning.). Edited March 22, 2017 by teros135 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_striker Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 1 minute ago, teros135 said: We can only wish... (Was at a L1 recently that had 3 different colored plates on the plate rack, including blue & red, and required 3 rds minimum at the paper targets (best 2 in the body (Comstock) but only one in the head box (Virginia)). That is definitely illegal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 18 minutes ago, Schutzenmeister said: Not to be overly pedantic, but it appears some are confusing "location" and "view." Both are described in the glossary. If I take 2-3 steps I am in a new location. A new view requires that something has to have interrupted my old view of the targets (such as a wall or other prop) and the new view has a different array of targets available. thanks for pointing that out. that is useful information to remember. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Cabana Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 Jodi - I know that Rule 1.2.1 specifies the maximum number of shooting positions in Short and Medium courses, but Rule 1.2.1.3 is silent on the number of shooting positions in a Long course. Where is the reference to a long course needed at least 4? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Lee Cabana said: Jodi - I know that Rule 1.2.1 specifies the maximum number of shooting positions in Short and Medium courses, but Rule 1.2.1.3 is silent on the number of shooting positions in a Long course. Where is the reference to a long course needed at least 4? it's just math, assuming you have 25 rounds or more, if there are only 3 positions, then there is no way to shoot the stage without requiring more than 8 shots from at least 1 view. Edited March 22, 2017 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_striker Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 (edited) 5 hours ago, Schutzenmeister said: Not to be overly pedantic, but it appears some are confusing "location" and "view." Both are described in the glossary. If I take 2-3 steps I am in a new location. A new view requires that something has to have interrupted my old view of the targets (such as a wall or other prop) and the new view has a different array of targets available. I think you're right about people using "location" and "view" synonymously when they clearly each have their own definition. I'm certainly guilty of it. But 1.2.1.3 says "location OR view." Perhaps this rule would be better if it read "location AND view." Edited March 22, 2017 by d_striker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MemphisMechanic Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 (edited) 5 hours ago, motosapiens said: it's just math, assuming you have 25 rounds or more, if there are only 3 positions, then there is no way to shoot the stage without requiring more than 8 shots from at least 1 view. The trap is that some people read this and get insanely literal. If three of the targets are available to be shot on the move while running down a long thin shooting area between a wall at the front of the bay and a wall at the back... You need to count that as a view or location or whatever you choose to call them, even if they CAN be shot through a port somewhere else. And in such a setup, even if the stage otherwise only has 3 ports/windows/shooting positions/view/locations ... it's now probably legal. Edited March 22, 2017 by MemphisMechanic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 4 hours ago, MemphisMechanic said: And in such a setup, even if the stage otherwise only has 3 ports/windows/shooting positions/view/locations ... it's now probably legal. well duh. Add 1 to 3 other ports/windows/shooting positions/views/locations, and you get 4. I'm good at math. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatJones Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 Not at all. To shoot that stage you MUST fire 8 shots from one position or another. To put it very simply: The stage may be designed so that open shooters can shoot the vast majority of the stage from one position. That's fine. The stage cannot force a production or revolver shooter to perform a flat-footed reload and continue shooting from that location. Come on, no one gives a damn if us revo shooters have a standing reload at every single position. The 8 round rule comes as a direct result of single stack major shooters, cuz John Moses Browning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MemphisMechanic Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 8 hours ago, PatJones said: Come on, no one gives a damn if us revo shooters have a standing reload at every single position. The 8 round rule comes as a direct result of single stack major shooters, cuz John Moses Browning. Sorry. I deliberately forgot SS was a thing. Again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 10 hours ago, PatJones said: Come on, no one gives a damn if us revo shooters have a standing reload at every single position. that's true. I don't. but I shoot SS, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted March 26, 2017 Share Posted March 26, 2017 One does need to differentiate between a standing reload by force and one by choice. I can set up a course that has 14 available targets in the middle of a stage that runs 100 feet from front to back. You can shoot them all standing in one spot or you can shoot them on the move and reload on the move. The only way you are going to get the last target or two is to get to the front of the stage for the ones hidden behind the wall. So the stage is legal even if all but a few targets are available from one view because you are not being forced to reload while standing in one spot. Throw in a No Shoot or two to break up the view of a couple of targets as you transition the 100 feet and no one can say it is illegal because of the one view for 14 of the 16 targets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 On 3/22/2017 at 0:22 PM, teros135 said: We can only wish... (Was at a L1 recently that had 3 different colored plates on the plate rack, including blue & red, and required 3 scoring hits on the paper targets (best 2 in the body (Comstock) but only one in the head box (Virginia), and shoot only at certain color plates from each of 3 boxes. Our heads were spinning.). Actually the entire stage was comstock. You could shoot as many rounds as needed satisfy the requirements. Wish I had shot one more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 4 minutes ago, Gary Stevens said: Actually the entire stage was comstock. You could shoot as many rounds as needed satisfy the requirements. Wish I had shot one more. IIRC, you could shoot a bunch, but the instructions seemed to say only *one* hit in the top box. Either way - those colors! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Jones Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 The rule says "per location or view". You may have one view, but if you take steps you have multiple locations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjb45 Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 How many steps George? If we are splitting hairs, I have one view through a port, just because someone moves their feet left or right a step or two to engage targets does not constitute another location-IMHO. Quantification of the number of steps needed to constitute a new location makes this issue programmatic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAFO Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 2 hours ago, pjb45 said: How many steps George? If we are splitting hairs, I have one view through a port, just because someone moves their feet left or right a step or two to engage targets does not constitute another location-IMHO. Quantification of the number of steps needed to constitute a new location makes this issue programmatic. From App A3, Location ...........................A physical space within the boundaries of a course of fire. For the purposes of this rule, a competitor will not be considered to have changed location until both feet have moved to a new physical position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjb45 Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 (edited) Thanks Chris, But I am still splitting hairs. If I move both feet less than an inch, is it a new physical location? Seems yes might be the answer from a technical point of view but it is not in the spirit of the 8 shots from one view or location. I like the bold font, I guess if I don't move my feet and can see/shoot all the targets of an overloaded stage/view I can cite the rule about ......no more than 8 ....... as long as there is no vision barrier. Hmmmm. View ................................ A range of sight or vision specific to an array of targets . In order to constitute a new "view" under this rule, the range of sight of an array of targets must be broken by a vision barrier of some sort, such that a different array of targets is seen in the new view. Edited March 27, 2017 by pjb45 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bosshoss Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 1 hour ago, pjb45 said: If I move both feet less than an inch, is it a new physical location? Yes according to the rules as written. Legally could have a 3x3 shooting box and 16 wide open targets and be a legal stage. As long as you can move your feet within the shooting box then targets are AVAILABLE from a different position. Not a good stage but legal none the less. I questioned a match director about a stage that had 5 targets that had to be shot thru a port and reminded him about 8 shots from a position. He walked up and showed me that the targets were available from several positions by just moving your feet a couple of inches while shooting thru the port. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 3 minutes ago, Bosshoss said: Yes according to the rules as written. Legally could have a 3x3 shooting box and 16 wide open targets and be a legal stage. As long as you can move your feet within the shooting box then targets are AVAILABLE from a different position. Not a good stage but legal none the less. I questioned a match director about a stage that had 5 targets that had to be shot thru a port and reminded him about 8 shots from a position. He walked up and showed me that the targets were available from several positions by just moving your feet a couple of inches while shooting thru the port. No way that's within the spirit of USPSA. That's just "gaming" on the part of the stage designer and/or match director, perhaps because they're too lazy to think up a reasonable design. They (or you) might think it's a clever stance, but It's not fair, equitable, or even challenging. Moving your feet a couple of inches isn't "movement", it's more like "shuffling". Come on, put your brain to work and design a real stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bosshoss Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 12 minutes ago, teros135 said: No way that's within the spirit of USPSA. That's just "gaming" on the part of the stage designer and/or match director, perhaps because they're too lazy to think up a reasonable design. They (or you) might think it's a clever stance, but It's not fair, equitable, or even challenging. Moving your feet a couple of inches isn't "movement", it's more like "shuffling". Come on, put your brain to work and design a real stage. Maybe not in the spirit but with in the rules. As a shooter that shoots the lowest capacity division all the time I don't condone the examples I used above but just pointed out the hole in the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjb45 Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 (edited) I believe you cannot compel a shooter to move his feet if he does not have to move his feet to see all the targets. As long as he does not move his feet and can see all the targets (more than 8 shots) then the stage is illegal. Boss I disagree. It is an illegal stage. Edited March 28, 2017 by pjb45 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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