9x45 Posted May 22, 2005 Share Posted May 22, 2005 Everyone is forgetting that IDPA rules are the opposite of USPSA rules. Since there are 6 USPSA classes, it means there must be not 6 in IDPA. It's like all the other rules. Ports and boxes in USPSA, not in IDPA, it's a window and starting position. No cover in USPSA, cover in IDPA. Reload how you want in USPSA, reload from cover in IDPA with retention or at slide lock. As many mags as you want in USPSA, only 2 for IDPA, and so on. IDPA is not about practical shooting, it's Bill Wilson's counterpoint to USPSA... And very clever of him, I would say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hostetter Posted May 23, 2005 Share Posted May 23, 2005 I think they should eliminate all of the classes from IDPA. Since Wilson stated IDPA is not about winning, but competing and learning, why have classes. The only reason for classes is to make more winners............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geezer-lock Posted May 23, 2005 Share Posted May 23, 2005 Everybody had their own ideas of what makes a superior shooter, but I am darned tired of all the talk of Paper Masters...It just makes me hot to hear all the comments about people shooting classifiers just to make the title and then fail in regular matches...If you let the Paper Master choose the stage, bet they would be tough for anyone out there... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Absolutely correct! To which I will add: USPSA has 246 GM’s across all classes, less that 2% of the current membership. In any given year there are fewer than 100 “major” matches in the U.S. Given that some GM’s will win multiple events during the year I think it likely that many GM’s will never win a major as a GM let alone HOA. In a typical match there will be some folks that shoot way over their level and a huge number that will shoot far below their class, including the GM’s. The fact that 98% of us CAN’T shoot the classifiers at the higher levels should be proof enough that they deserve the title. One thing I have never seen in print is any Grand Master asserting that there is even any such thing as a “paper” GM. Regardless of how “easy” it is to make Master in IDPA, I expect that the same percentages apply. Think of all the possibilities for falling down (literally as well as figuratively) in a match and the limited opportunities to win and you will begin to see how difficult it is to demonstrate that you have mastered the sport. Give it a rest. geezer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew_Mink Posted May 23, 2005 Share Posted May 23, 2005 One thing I have never seen in print is any Grand Master asserting that there is even any such thing as a “paper” GM. There are such things as 'paper' GM's. And after this weekend, I feel like one of them in Lim10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geezer-lock Posted May 23, 2005 Share Posted May 23, 2005 There are such things as 'paper' GM's. And after this weekend, I feel like one of them in Lim10. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well Matt, I have now seen it in print, but I think you inadvertently made my point. You obviously do not consider yourself a “paper” GM but you did something that makes you feel that you performed way below your potential. That in itself takes nothing away from your achievement. What remains is the fact that it is very difficult to win as a GM. I rest my case geezer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted May 23, 2005 Share Posted May 23, 2005 Hmm.. I'm just a lowly M, but there are some GM's I can beat regularly. Does that make me a sandbagger? I doubt it, good GM's beat me by 10%, and Max can beat me by 20% most any day. There do exist shooters with GM cards that for whatever reason (age, infirmity, lack of practice, etc, etc) do not shoot at the GM level. Are they any worse for it? Are we? I personally know a shooter that practiced particular classifiers over and over until he got the GM card. Made no bones about it. He doesn't shoot anymore, but I'm sure he's not the only one. Is he any worse for it? He got exactly what he wanted, how he wanted. Are we worse for it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted May 24, 2005 Share Posted May 24, 2005 Why not add some real criteria, besides %, or time - like:Hold the classification of Master, PLUS get an overall win in division at a major match with X number of masters/gm's present. Or finish in the top X % of the Nationals, in your division. One of the real draws to IDPA is the simplicity of the classification system. Shoot the classifier, boom, you're classified. People like that. I don't believe we'll ever see a Grand Master class. Not that I'm constitutionally opposed to the idea, but the class system in IDPA was intentionally set up to make it fairly simple to "make rank." I have to question how many IDPA Masters out there are getting their clocks cleaned by USPSA B-class shooters. Any single IDPA Master may have gotten his rank by practicing the classifier to death, but the thing is, by the time you can post an honest Master score on the classifier, you're going to be a shooter who's pretty darn good at just a whole lot of different things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter-Booth-A43995 Posted August 15, 2005 Share Posted August 15, 2005 by practicing the idpa classifier to death to get the master score is practicing to get good as a bullseye shooter which will make you awsome at standards but unless someone shows you how to get good at field course you will never be a great master. the example of this is my father who is about 59 years old and shot bullseye for 18 years and even became a distinguished , top 10 percent of the naional mathces 3-5 times with a gi 45 using hardball. he can get the master classification easily and is a great shooter on standards.But on field courses he cant keep up he is slow and acturate,a few years of uspsa has changed that a bit. i still belive that making the only way to get gm class is by winning a state match or higher up match would be a great idea. This would seprate the good masters from the great ones and give trophys to a more variety of people which will improve overal experiance for those guys and give more of a challenge to those who just continiously win master trophys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Lombardo Posted August 15, 2005 Share Posted August 15, 2005 by the time you can post an honest Master score on the classifier, you're going to be a shooter who's pretty darn good at just a whole lot of different things. Very well put Duane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pisgahrifle Posted August 15, 2005 Share Posted August 15, 2005 I'm not sure if the phrase "grand master" is tacti-cool enough for IDPA... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Precision40 Posted August 15, 2005 Share Posted August 15, 2005 There is no problem with someone being a "paper" master, if they made master then that's an accomplishment. What yanks my chain is when someone who is a Master class (or higher) shooter and is only classified a Sharpshooter or Marksman. I see that all the time at major matches. I feel good about my classification because I know it's honest. I made SSP Master and never practice the classifier. I don't think I'm all that great, just a run-of-the-mill shooter, So I find it hard to believe that some people can outshoot everyone at a major match by over 20 seconds and can only shoot a MM or SS classifier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clay1 Posted August 15, 2005 Share Posted August 15, 2005 I think that is exactly why everyone must classify at least once a year now instead of the people that classified once three years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revchuck Posted August 15, 2005 Share Posted August 15, 2005 I think that is exactly why everyone must classify at least once a year now instead of the people that classified once three years ago. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Dang - That's five classifiers a year for some of us! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pisgahrifle Posted August 15, 2005 Share Posted August 15, 2005 I think that is exactly why everyone must classify at least once a year now instead of the people that classified once three years ago. Because nobody ever sandbags the classifier... The only way to make folk classify straight is to have a classifier stage within a match ala USPSA. You make people shoot their best or lose than it fixes some of these things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted August 16, 2005 Share Posted August 16, 2005 by the time you can post an honest Master score on the classifier, you're going to be a shooter who's pretty darn good at just a whole lot of different things. Very well put Duane. Why, thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter-Booth-A43995 Posted August 16, 2005 Share Posted August 16, 2005 i think a good way to cure sandbaggers is to put a classifier in a big match. i can see how it wouldnt be to hard to screw up a stage at a rinkydink match. but it would be hard to do in a major. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Murphy Posted August 16, 2005 Share Posted August 16, 2005 i think a good way to cure sandbaggers is to put a classifier in a big match. i can see how it wouldnt be to hard to screw up a stage at a rinkydink match. but it would be hard to do in a major. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Unfortunately the classifier is a 90 round boondoggle for a big match. If the unofficial short course classifier got accepted it might work, that's only 60 rounds and set up to run faster. Ted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pisgahrifle Posted August 16, 2005 Share Posted August 16, 2005 Why not just put together a book of classifier stages like USPSA does and work them into major matches? It seems to be working pretty well for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Murphy Posted August 16, 2005 Share Posted August 16, 2005 Pisgarifle, Ask HQ. It's their classifier. Ted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pisgahrifle Posted August 16, 2005 Share Posted August 16, 2005 Sigh... I know, I know... God bless their pointy little heads... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clay1 Posted August 16, 2005 Share Posted August 16, 2005 I'm no IDPA expert but this is their statement from the rule book on the classifier: "IDPA has a very quick and easy method of classifying shooters." I think that the single event is there by design. The short first three paragraph's from the rule book offer insight as well: "The International Defensive Pistol Association (IDPA) is the governing body of a shooting sport that simulates self-defense scenarios and real life encounters. It was founded in 1996 as a response to the desires of shooters worldwide. The organization now boasts membership of more than 11,000, including members in 19 foreign countries. One of the unique facets of this sport is that it is geared toward the new or average shooter, yet is fun, challenging and rewarding for the experienced shooter. The founders developed the sport so that practical gear and practical guns may be used competitively. An interested person can spend a minimal amount on equipment and still be competitive. The main goal is to test the skill and ability of the individual, not equipment or gamesmanship. “Competition only” equipment is not permitted in this sport." Just an observation on humanity - I believe from a very early age we are conditioned with a home team mentality to the exclusion of all others. Our team is the team and all others are to be shunned or looked down upon. To do otherwise is an act of disloyalty or a treason. This conditioned trait carries over in life to many daily activities. Boys, they are just two shooting games. You can shoot both if you want, if you don't want, no one says you have too. Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Stoeger Posted August 17, 2005 Share Posted August 17, 2005 If some guy who shoots really really well thinks its somehow cool to be a sharpshooter, I guess thats fine with me. There are no prizes at stake anyway. The classification system ends up being what YOU (as a shooter) make it. If you shoot every so often to get grouped with people of like ability, that is one thing. If you practice it and want to really kick ass on it thats another. If you sand bag it because you wan't to be a marksman, then that is something else. I don't agree with people doing it, but there isn't really a solution is there? If you run into a sandbagger, just realize that he is a jerk, and move on with your life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmills Posted August 20, 2005 Share Posted August 20, 2005 "Just an observation on humanity - I believe from a very early age we are conditioned with a home team mentality to the exclusion of all others. Our team is the team and all others are to be shunned or looked down upon. To do otherwise is an act of disloyalty or a treason. This conditioned trait carries over in life to many daily activities. Boys, they are just two shooting games. You can shoot both if you want, if you don't want, no one says you have too. Rick" Ditto - Two different games.............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Freeman Posted August 20, 2005 Share Posted August 20, 2005 I'm not sure if the phrase "grand master" is tacti-cool enough for IDPA... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> How about Jedi Master or Ninja Master? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shooterready Posted August 30, 2005 Share Posted August 30, 2005 I'm not sure if the phrase "grand master" is tacti-cool enough for IDPA... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'm glad I finally made master in SSP. Not that I consider myself a great shooter. I have a long way to go, but probably not enough time to get there. None of my fellow shooters in EX bug me anymore about reclassifying. It's great. I just shoot. Works for me. Dick Lichon shooterready Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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