DVC LIMITED- Violent recoil

[jtrump]

Set that gun up with a 19 lb main and a 12.5 lb recoil spring. Adding steel grips just slows down transitions, heavy guns are slow guns. We have shot those guns with plastic grips for years, check out the guys winning and I bet you find out their guns weigh 34 to 38 ozs. Swinging a brick around out there dosent do much for you. Gripping the snot out of the gun just slows down your spits. Grip the gun hard as you can for a few seconds and see how free your trigger finger is. Get your grip to about 40% strong hand and 60% weak hand. Load a 180 grain with titegroup or VV320 or something similar at a power factor about 170 or so. 1.180loa and a .418 crimp. Load a 2 gallon bucket full of that load. Go set up 3 targets at 10 yds, shoot bill drills and transision drills. Watch that front sight and follow it, try to shoot about 90% As, you will be slow but you will get faster.. Learn the gun and get in time with it. When that bucket is empty, repeat,often,. Use a timer and track your progress.-----------Larry

I agree, Me and the gun need to be on the same page and "have the timing down"

[jtrump]

Thread drift: how does "squeezing the gun really hard does more harm than good"?

Read Brian Eno's book. He can explain better than me, but death gripping and "fighting" recoil is a lost cause because no amount of grip strength will eliminate it entirely. He argues that by focusing on equal grip pressure between both hands (using a grip similar to what you would use to swing a hammer) and learning the timing of your gun so it tracks perfectly up and down back onto the target will get you better results than the death-grip and fight method. I've spent a few months since I read it trying to put this to use, and while I'm certainly no Brian Enos, it does make for smoother, more controlled shooting. Plus, if you are like a buddy of mine who gets REALLY intense, your mags won't drop free from a polymer gun when you are squeezing the piss out of it [emoji12]

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There what he said ^^

[CHA-LEE]

All of this discussion is a waste without factual evidence of the "Failure Mode". Get some slow motion video taken from the weak hand side so we can actually SEE what you are complaining about.

No offense, but if this is going to turn into a pissing contest which it's not........ I'm no GM yet and I've never claimed to be, but I taught shooting for along time, much longer than I've shot competition "3 matches"... If I have two shooters who both have shot limited division to High Master and one to GM, and they both say the gun feels violent and something isn't right then I would have to say I'm not complaining I'm right. And I will fix the problem eventually, so please constructive posts only.

How is getting actual video footage of the problem so the issue can be seen and advice based on facts for fixing the issue given NOT constructive???

The duration of your shooting experience has little bearing on actually doing things correctly. I have seen plenty of shooters with decades of shooting experience still doing basic skills completely wrong.

[jtrump]

It's the way you wrote it, I don't like it, care for it or need it. Plenty of other good advice here without "All of this discussion is a waste without factual evidence of the "Failure Mode". Get some slow motion video taken from the weak hand side so we can actually SEE what you are complaining about." That should be the last of our discussion.

r/

[CHA-LEE]

You can either get your feelings hurt by hearing the facts and ignore the recommendations, or you can get some video done and solve the problem. Or you can listen to 72039823480934 random recommendations and waste a bunch of time and money trying to figure it out on your own doing random things. One of these options has a clear path to a solution, the other options do not. Pick wisely.

[TonytheTiger]

CHA-LEE doesn't waste words and doesn't beat around bushes. Some of us appreciate that. If you really want somebody to help solve your problem, starting with actually understanding your problem, then he is correct, video is needed.

[PatJones]

It's the way you wrote it, I don't like it, care for it or need it. Plenty of other good advice here without "All of this discussion is a waste without factual evidence of the "Failure Mode". Get some slow motion video taken from the weak hand side so we can actually SEE what you are complaining about." That should be the last of our discussion.

r/

Charlie finished 13th at last year's limited nationals. He is _very_ particular about setting up his equipment. I don't see the 12 guys that beat him that day taking the time to post here, we should all pay attention to what he says.

[GB3]

FWIW, if CHA-LEE asked me to post a video so he could help me with an issue I was having, I would post that video. Then I would say thank you.

[jtrump]

Not saying he's not an accomplished shooter, by all means he's a damn good shooter, and I've read his bio on setting up his 2011 and indeed it is very through. Just the way he wrote it rubbed me wrong, I'm not complaining, but there is something in particular with the gun that needs to be addressed, I have no way near the knowledge/ gun smith skills or know how to perform half of the trouble shooting involved in what he did to get his gun to feel right. But I can tell you from his BIO that what I am experiencing is exactly what he experienced when switching to the 2011 from the mags not dropping freely from gripping the plastic to hard, to not being able to call my shots because of the having small Notches cut in the factory STI sights, to the gun displacing off of my aiming point dramatically. That word complaining wont hurt my feelings, but it's aggravating. I want to be better and I can't do that if things don't feel right..

Like I said, no pissing contest or war, Were all grown and I'm sure we all have better things to do, I just came here for help and not to get called a complainer..

I notice one of the big things that seemed to improve the overall feel of the gun was the Metal PT Grips. I'm going to the range tomorrow to chrono some loads, and also do some live fire practice, I will bring my go-pro and set it up and film a few bill drills and then try to figure out how to slow it down in go-pro studio "shouldn't" be to hard.

Edited March 18, 2016 by jtrump

[jtrump]

It's the way you wrote it, I don't like it, care for it or need it. Plenty of other good advice here without "All of this discussion is a waste without factual evidence of the "Failure Mode". Get some slow motion video taken from the weak hand side so we can actually SEE what you are complaining about." That should be the last of our discussion.

r/

Charlie finished 13th at last year's limited nationals. He is _very_ particular about setting up his equipment. I don't see the 12 guys that beat him that day taking the time to post here, we should all pay attention to what he says.

Yea I read the BIO he wrote from setting up the 2011 from start to finish... very particular is somewhat of an understatement.

Edited March 18, 2016 by jtrump

[PatJones]

It's the way you wrote it, I don't like it, care for it or need it. Plenty of other good advice here without "All of this discussion is a waste without factual evidence of the "Failure Mode". Get some slow motion video taken from the weak hand side so we can actually SEE what you are complaining about." That should be the last of our discussion.

r/

Charlie finished 13th at last year's limited nationals. He is _very_ particular about setting up his equipment. I don't see the 12 guys that beat him that day taking the time to post here, we should all pay attention to what he says.

Yea I read the BIO he wrote from setting up the 2011 from start to finish... very particular is somewhat of an understatement.

I took a magazine thru his gun a couple years back. It shoots so flat it's really weird.

[DaveFromAus]

Where is the bio on Cha lee setting up his 2011 I'd like to read it

Thanks

[jtrump]

Where is the bio on Cha lee setting up his 2011 I'd like to read it

Thanks

Search in the main forum CHA-LEE's Tale, or just chalee should work, he has a range diary, I think the build and the go over for the 2011 starts around page 51-53.

[Strick]

I didn't read every single post but I can tell you.......if you don't like the feel, you don't like the feel. People trying to tell you to do this or that makes no sense. I have a Edge and a custom built lightened 2011, I like the Edge much better. I find the lightened slide to be, like you said, more violent. How did I fix the problem.......I decided to shoot the Edge.

There have been some real goofy responses in a thread that comes down to how a particular shooter perceives recoil.

[jtrump]

https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.trumpower/videos/249180295418708/"><div

Make sure to select HD or else the quality looks like pooh also.

Sorry the audio is crappy, I guess that's what happens when you slow it way down in go_pro studio and I don't know of a way to fix it

Same video in normal speed, shooting for all A's.

https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.trumpower/posts/249185788751492

Edited March 18, 2016 by jtrump

[jtrump]

I think I like the idea of opening up the sights on the stock sti sight a little bit.

I think fitting the new FP stop with a flat bottom FP stop from egw made the gun slow down a little, I also switched to a standard 12lb spring today, and first time every shooting the gun with a thumb rest it also seemed to help it feel a little better.

I tried an 11lb spring and some double taps, if I could consistently pull off a .14 or sub split it was fine, it i was at a .16+split my 2nd shot was pretty high so I decided the 12lb would be best for now.

[CHA-LEE]

The video is a little far away to see all of the nuances but one thing I do see is the gun shifting in a stationary left hand. This is usually due to not enough grip pressure with the left hand. It also looks like your left hand isn't canted forward enough. Was this video taken when you were using the thumb rest? If so ditch it as its not needed if you cant your wrist forward and grip hard with your left hand.

From a gun movement perspective there is some slide snapping forward muzzle bounce which is usually too heavy of a recoil spring. Try dropping a pound or two on the recoil spring to minimize the bounce. The rearward slide velocity movement is causing the majority of the total muzzle flip when the slide bottoms out on the frame. You can reduce this by tuning the angle of the firing pin stop or increasing the hammer spring weight. It's easier to change the hammer springs so start with that. Try a 15, 18, 20lb springs so see which one tames the slide velocity without increasing the muzzle flip.

[jtrump]

The video is a little far away to see all of the nuances but one thing I do see is the gun shifting in a stationary left hand. This is usually due to not enough grip pressure with the left hand. It also looks like your left hand isn't canted forward enough. Was this video taken when you were using the thumb rest? If so ditch it as its not needed if you cant your wrist forward and grip hard with your left hand.

From a gun movement perspective there is some slide snapping forward muzzle bounce which is usually too heavy of a recoil spring. Try dropping a pound or two on the recoil spring to minimize the bounce. The rearward slide velocity movement is causing the majority of the total muzzle flip when the slide bottoms out on the frame. You can reduce this by tuning the angle of the firing pin stop or increasing the hammer spring weight. It's easier to change the hammer springs so start with that. Try a 15, 18, 20lb springs so see which one tames the slide velocity without increasing the muzzle flip.

Charlie, yes this video was taken today it's the first time I've ever shot the gun with the thumb rest on, I just got it and had not even pulled it out of a holster in dry fire so that was my first run with it.

I have a 12lb standard spring in there now and during that video, I brought an 11lb standard spring with me and unless I shot a sub .14split my controlled pair's were not very controlled, 2nd shot always high, when you say "You can reduce this by tuning the angle of the firing pin stop" right now the firing pin stop is literally just a flat bottom firing pin stop with the edge filed off, just the very sharp edge broken off there is no radius whatsoever, should there be? The gun has a 15lb hammer spring in it now, I believe I have a 17lb on hand but not the others listed.

Match tomorrow, going to try to shoot it how it is.. I'll do some more testing before the match next weekend, if you could elaborate on the firing pin radius it would be greatly appreciated.

[kneelingatlas]

Round the bottom portion of the firing pin stop to make it look like the one in kneelingatlas's picture. That will help reduce the initial muzzle flip.

Edited March 19, 2016 by kneelingatlas

[jtrump]

Match canceled due to nice Florida thunderstorms all day! Guess I can radius that FP stop now.

[APL-G35]

Radius the FPS as pictured. I run a 19lb mainspring and a 12.5 recoil spring. This is a pretty standard setup that a good majority run in limited. Steel grips help a lot. There's the weight aspect to it but also they don't flex. Shooting s steel gun really tames the sight lift.

[jtrump]

I may make the plunge and get the PT grips, running it over in my head now,

I also found out today my front sight is a .100 fiber, and my rear sight notch is .115 .... I think this needs to be addressed.

Edited March 19, 2016 by jtrump

[nitrohuck]

If you still don't like your gun after the steel grips/magwell are installed THEN you can quit limited

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[jtrump]

Then I can go back to SS "shot 2 match's" and try to get classified... My match was canceled today and it didn't even rain, I was guaranteed a B card today! pisssssss

[seadog_99]

I switched from a full-weight slide on a 2011 to a lightened slide custom. Didn't care for it until I switched to 200gr coated Bullets to slow the slide down. 17lb mainspring and 11lb recoil.