How do you know if a stage is more about points or speed ?

[magpulled]

I've been shooting off and on for two years now and really don't understand the scoring completely. How do you go about deciding if a stage is more about speed or more about getting your hits. Another thing I don't understand is how a shooter who shoots a match 3 seconds faster has 10 less alphas, 3 more deltas, and 2 mikes beats me by 6 percent. Do those 3 seconds equal 5 percent in total finish or did they just do better on the stages that the overall winner dis good on. It boggles my mind trying to figure it out which surprises me because I'm a numbers person.

Thanks for any input

[Trent1k1]

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=229546&view=&hl=&fromsearch=1

Some good stuff in this thread

[EkuJustice]

Are you shooting major or Minor? You really need to do both of them but as a general rule With minor you really need to go for points more often than not. With major you can take some more charlies if you can gain some time doing it. Example, partials if you can hit a fast charlie vs a slow riskier alpha if it has a no shoot next to it etc you are better to take the charlie. Same with head shots, a good fast bravo/alpha is better than a slower guaranteed alpha. On distance shots, a charlie isnt as bad if it saves time getting it. Up close, dont waste points.

There really is no going for points totally or speed totally as a slow as anything all alphas in a group isnt good nor is throwing deltas all over fast

[Trent1k1]

The basic answer is, you can miss fate enough to beat a slow person who doesn't miss.

This sport is a balance of speed and accuracy.

You didn't say which division you shoot. Major vs. Minor is another discussion you can search for if you have hours to read all the opinions.

I shoot Major. If I shoot a stage roughly 3 seconds faster than you, I can probably have a miss and still beat you. (Especially if you are shooting Minor as opposed to my major)

If your club posts scores to USPSA, they break down the score percentage foe you. Alternatively you can do the math.

If you are shooting 90 percent of the points, that is roughly where you want to be. If you are shooting 95 percent, you need to speed up and live with some Charlie's.

My guess is that your percentage of the points is pretty high if your speed is slow.

Misses are NOT good, but neither are deltas. Nothing wrong with some Charlie's though....

[NMBOpen]

On a Fixed Time stage your Hit Factor is your points. Low round count stages also favor points over time.

[magpulled]

Im a 70% b class shooter in production and have just started shooting limited this year. Have 2 classifiers. so far 50% and an 80. When I shot the 50 I had some gun issues so it may not be a good representation. I've only shot 2 matches in limited and I'm shooting major. I don't feel like I'm terribly slow. Im usually 20 secs behind the gm who wins every time at our local match.

[Trent1k1]

Major or a minor in Limited?

[d_striker]

Speed and accuracy are both important on EVERY stage regardless of what people will tell you.

Hit factor is simply a quotient derived from the numerator (points) divided by the denominator (time.). Increase the numerator or decrease the denominator and the quotient increases.

The relationship between these two attributes is what creates the challenge of this sport.

[kcd19]

a couple have touched on it [d_striker], but i'll share what help it click with me.. think of it "points per second". that's all hit factor boils down to. heck, even carry a calculator in your range bag and run some numbers in "what-if" scenarios.

take a 100 point stage because the numbers are easy.

Clean the stage with slow, precise shooting in 30 seconds. 100 points. 3.333 hit factor.

Now turn it up a little bit. Say 92 points in 25 seconds. 3.680 hit factor. You just traded a few points for time and boosted your HF on the stage.

Now go faster, but give up a couple of hits for the speed. 85 points in 15 seconds. HF of 5.667.

You can even extend that a bit further.. you could do much more poorly on hits [70 points] in that same 15 seconds and still have a HF of 4.667, well above the initial "clean" score in 30 seconds, but not as good as with good hits, either.

also, consider a single target scenario for when making up shots makes sense..

Let's call 2 shots an A-D in Production [minor] in 2 seconds. that's 5 + 1 = 6 points / 2 seconds = 3.00 HF. Not bad.. BUT..

Make up that 'D' hit with an 'A'. now you have 5 + 5 = 10 points / 2.10 seconds = 4.762 HF. better, and certainly worth it in pretty much every scenario.

those examples aren't meant to speak slowly using short words... but hopefully it illustrates what tradeoffs you're making in terms of speed/accuracy & helps to frame things a bit more clearly.

it's all about how efficient you can be for the most points. you can't substitute speed for poor hits and do well, but there's a balance where you can tilt the math in your favor.

[magpulled]

I shoot major.

Thanks for the input guys. I'm starting to understand now.

[rooster]

Never paid too much attention to the points vs speed. It helps sometimes to know if the stage favors speed or accuracy but your front sight tells you what you can get away with. Anything with a hf of 5 or lower its accuracy heavy, 6 hf above favors speed.

[acpie360]

The title of this thread is

How do you know if a stage is more about points or speed ?

So you come to a stage, you know the total point of that stage, but you don't really know the time, do you? I think analyzing HF only makes sense to a classifier stage where the HF can be looked up ahead of time.

Edited March 1, 2016 by acpie360

[motosapiens]

The title of this thread is

How do you know if a stage is more about points or speed ?

So you come to a stage, you know the total point of that stage, but you don't really know the time, do you? I think analyzing HF only makes sense to a classifier stage where the HF can be looked up ahead of time.

You should be able to look at a stage and get a general idea of what the HF should be for your skill level. If there's little movement and lots of open targets close together, it's probably a high HF. OTOH, if there are partials and no-shoots and mini-poppers at 20 yards, with lots of movement and akward positions, it's probably going to be low HF.

For anything between those extremes, I just don't worry about it, and I shoot it like I shoot it. There's no need to turn this into calculus; just a general idea is all that's needed. The lower the HF, the more time each lost point equates to, so it's worth taking a smidge more time in order to not drop points.

[pskys2]

The higher the hit factor the more speed plays a role.

BUT, I had a world class competitor explain it this way. It's never about speed, within a particular skill level all will do about the same speed, within a few tenths, so he always FOCUSED on the points as that is what would separate him from the others.

If you let your front sight, or dot, be your governor then speed will take care of itself.

Edited March 1, 2016 by pskys2

[d_striker]

The higher the hit factor the more speed plays a role.

BUT, I had a world class competitor explain it this way. It's never about speed, within a particular skill level all will do about the same speed, within a few tenths, so he always FOCUSED on the points as that is what would separate him from the others.

If you let your front sight, or dot, be your governor then speed will take care of itself.

I like this post a lot.

[rooster]

Try and watch a shooter with your skill level. Listen for the time called and see how many points he's down and do the math. That will give you an idea of what the hf is.

[CHA-LEE]

The real question is why does it even matter if a stage is biased one way or another? All you can do is perform to your current skill level after the buzzer goes off. If you try to "Shot Faster" because its a high hit factor stage all that will do is create worse hits because you are trying to perform beyond your current skill level.

This game is about shooting A's as soon as possible. The hit factor bias of the stage does not change that basic requirement.

The only time I will try to figure out the possible hit factor of a stage is if there is a disappearing target that I am thinking about skipping. But even then, for most major matches, its a rare case where skipping it is worth it from a stage HF perspective.

Worry about the total percentage of points shot instead. If you are not shooting 90% - 95% of the possible points in the match then you have other major issues that you need to fix first before even worrying about the possible Hit Factor of a stage.

[d_striker]

The real question is why does it even matter if a stage is biased one way or another? All you can do is perform to your current skill level after the buzzer goes off. If you try to "Shot Faster" because its a high hit factor stage all that will do is create worse hits because you are trying to perform beyond your current skill level.

This game is about shooting A's as soon as possible. The hit factor bias of the stage does not change that basic requirement.

The only time I will try to figure out the possible hit factor of a stage is if there is a disappearing target that I am thinking about skipping. But even then, for most major matches, its a rare case where skipping it is worth it from a stage HF perspective.

Worry about the total percentage of points shot instead. If you are not shooting 90% - 95% of the possible points in the match then you have other major issues that you need to fix first before even worrying about the possible Hit Factor of a stage.

/mic drop

[Nik Habicht]

The only way I worried about this concept when I was getting started, was when there was something on the stage that I knew would slow me down -- like a Cooper Tunnel. I'd simply start knowing that I couldn't compete on time -- so the focus became about shooting as many alphas as possible......

Eventually I saw the light and made that the mission on every stage. After progressing a little while shooting perfect or near perfect hits, I added a few words to the end: Shoot as many alphas as possible, while running the stage in as short a time as possible. Notice that running the stage is not about the shooting; it's about everything else. Also note that while shooting as many alphas as possible, each alpha should make the most efficient use of time -- in other words never slow down more than you need to to guarantee alphas, and never speed up to more than the pace at which you can guarantee alphas. Depending on the distance to target and amount of hard cover or no-shoots used your splits might be .15 or they might be .33 -- they should be whatever it takes to get a good hit....

Sidenote -- I shoot/shot mainly production, so the points really matter.

[mont1120]

One other aspect of this, (I am not a fast shooter by any means), is keep in mind it is also hard to compare divisions within a match. In my case, shooting L10 means more mag changes, or the same in Production, with only 10 rounds, you are at a time disadvantage which can only slow you down. When I fist began I kept wondering why I never placed higher in a match when I shot accuracy much better. Then the light bulb went off and I realized trying to compare times and hit factor with those who shoot limited or Open does not translate at all. It will be lower because of the lost time changing the mags. (In my case at least.)

I must admit I watch a SS shooter sweep the field once. that guy did mag changes through a stage faster then I could get one done it seemed.

[Fowlmouths]

The real question is why does it even matter if a stage is biased one way or another? All you can do is perform to your current skill level after the buzzer goes off. If you try to "Shot Faster" because its a high hit factor stage all that will do is create worse hits because you are trying to perform beyond your current skill level.

This game is about shooting A's as soon as possible. The hit factor bias of the stage does not change that basic requirement.

The only time I will try to figure out the possible hit factor of a stage is if there is a disappearing target that I am thinking about skipping. But even then, for most major matches, its a rare case where skipping it is worth it from a stage HF perspective.

Worry about the total percentage of points shot instead. If you are not shooting 90% - 95% of the possible points in the match then you have other major issues that you need to fix first before even worrying about the possible Hit Factor of a stage.

Is the 90-95 before or after penalties? The FL Open was rough on me! I think using the thing on the front of the pistol would have helped me.

[CHA-LEE]

After Penalties......... Realistically we shouldn't be racking up any penalties if we are doing our job correctly. Some matches/stages make this nearly impossible though if the shooting challenges are extremely difficult. On average whoever shoots 90% - 95% of the points with no penalties is usually the person winning the match or damn close to winning.

[Strick]

I agree with just about every thing the Panda man said except I look at points before penalties. Like he said you should be shooting clean anyway and I want to know what I actually shot, not what I penalized for shooting.

[Nik Habicht]

After Penalties......... Realistically we shouldn't be racking up any penalties if we are doing our job correctly. Some matches/stages make this nearly impossible though if the shooting challenges are extremely difficult. On average whoever shoots 90% - 95% of the points with no penalties is usually the person winning the match or damn close to winning.

Yeah, so the real plan -- before worrying about speed vs. points -- should be:

Shoot a clean match. That means no misses, no no-shoot hits.

Try to shoot accurately enough that you won't be taking a lot of makeup shots. Everyone of those costs time -- and it's not often time well spent when you're starting out, when the splits and transitions back to the target really add significant time.

Once you can efficiently shoot and call your shots from 3 to 30 yards, on full targets and partials, including tight no-shoot covered partials, it's time to work on single hand skills a little, along with odd positions -- seated, kneeling, prone.

Got all that down? Start working on shooting on the move -- start with moving toward or away from targets in a straight line. Then shooting at targets while moving horizontally. Then shooting as soon as you have a target available while coming into a position, even if the order is weird.

Once you master that, it's time to figure out if you're faster shooting on an "as available" even if out of order basis as you move into a position, or is it better for overall stage time to drive all the way and sweep across? You're now working on engaging targets in the most efficient matter possible for you.

At this point speed versus points stops mattering because you can effortlessly dial up and down the speed of movement or the vision or both on an as needed basis -- essentially you'll be giving each shot exactly the time it needs to be a solid hit.

Bottom line -- shooting clean will help you win, whether you're competing for the division title or for high B class with a couple of your friends....

[magpulled]

I went back and looked at my last match and I was between 88% and 96% on 6 stages and no penalties so I guess I'm on track with points. Just need to work on cutting my times down a second or two here and there. When I get a few matches under my belt in limited I think I'll get a better idea. Limited is totally different than production.