retention reloads

[CrashDodson]

When your forced to do a retention reload, like in the classifier, what have you found is the fastest way?

I know you dont have to wear concealment but it seems like on the strings with retention reloads it would be fastest to have a vest with good open pockets to drop the mag in. I shot the classifer this last weekend and fumbled getting the mag in my pocket, twice. This plus one mike got me an expert classification rather than master. This is something I rarely practice.

Is it faster to drop the mag in the gun, stow and grab the new mag? Drop the mag, grab new mag, insert then stow? Grab new mag, swap, and stow previous?

[MilkMyDuds]

Drop the mag, tuck it inside the belt/pant front, then grab the new mag. This is the fastest.

[45 Raven]

"Drop the mag, tuck it inside the belt/pant front, then grab the new mag. This is the fastest"

THIS

[Jane]

[S&W686]

Drop the mag, tuck it inside the belt/pant front, then grab the new mag. This is the fastest.

This is what I have done for years and it works very well. Just watch Dave Sevigny in the video. That is how I learned.

[Craig N]

It's whatever YOU can do the fastest. For me it's using a nice big front pants pocket if I'm not wearing my "vest".

[rowdyb]

old mag to vest or pocket, new mag to gun. done. one trip for my hand each way, only one mag in my hand at a time. works regardless of clothes, vest, waist line, standing or moving.

the fastest way is the one you can do most reliably, with the best coordination and while moving. outside the classifier most times one does a rwr while moving. if you can't do yours moving it's not going to help you.

[IronArcher]

Drop the mag, tuck it inside the belt/pant front, then grab the new mag. This is the fastest.

Tried this for a while....maybe I'm just too fat (and i'm really not THAT fat LOL).

I leave a mag in the front pocket, helps keep it open.

Gonna try the Vest Pocket idea rowdy suggested... but I have a classifier tonight, so I'm sticking with what works for today.

[Thomas H]

Drop the mag, tuck it inside the belt/pant front, then grab the new mag. This is the fastest.

Doesn't this depend on what movement is required?

Picking an easy example, from the classifier:

1) When shooting stage 3, draw, shoot two each from one side of the barricade, do the above retention-reload, shoot from the other side. No problem.

2) But for the next string where you shoot, then move to the barrel: get the new mag, drop the old into the hand and stick the new one in, start moving and while moving get the old mag into a pocket. This will save time, yes?

So the type of reload that is "best" really depends on whether or not you can legally move during the reload. (Do you have to leave cover or cross an opening?) Depending on the situation, getting that new mag in as fast as possible is potentially more important. If you can move while reloading, then obviously doing one thing at a time will be easier, so pocket the old mag first.

True?

As for "where to stow" it really seems to depend on body type and pocket openings for different people.. For me, sticking it behind my belt just isn't going to work, if I want it to not go anywhere if I have to move. Must pocket it---and my vest pockets move too much. But the pants I normally wear (or shorts in summer) for matches have pockets that bag a bit, so for me using those is by far the fastest and most consistent.

[Dons1911]

2) But for the next string where you shoot, then move to the barrel: get the new mag, drop the old into the hand and stick the new one in, start moving and while moving get the old mag into a pocket. This will save time, yes?

This is what I do at our local club. However, yesterday I shot a match at another club and was given a procedural for moving before my mag was stowed. After we discussed it they lifted the procedural. Now I have looked thru the rulebook and do not find any real clear answers... I feel this is the fastest way to do this part of the classifier though.

[racknrider]

2) But for the next string where you shoot, then move to the barrel: get the new mag, drop the old into the hand and stick the new one in, start moving and while moving get the old mag into a pocket. This will save time, yes?

This is what I do at our local club. However, yesterday I shot a match at another club and was given a procedural for moving before my mag was stowed. After we discussed it they lifted the procedural. Now I have looked thru the rulebook and do not find any real clear answers... I feel this is the fastest way to do this part of the classifier though.

Every situation cannot be expressly addressed or the rule book would look like the US tax code. Based on my reading of 3.4.2, 3.6.1, and 8.6.1.1 I say PE. Might make a good clarification submission.

[Jim Watson]

There is nothing there against moving while stowing a magazine as long as you don't shoot while stowing a magazine (Rule 3.7).

I go back to the era when the Tac Load could be specified and the Reload With Retention not allowed.

These days, they are lumped together and there are few occasions other than Classifier Stage 3 String 2 where a true Tac Load is worth the added fumble risk.

But I have the Tac Load trained in and will often do it even when I plan a RWR before the buzzer scrambles my brain.

And then there is the time spent learning to do a real revolver Tac Load when the rule book of the day suggested "just drop the whole mess in a pocket."

[Dons1911]

I agree, and was thinking about a clarification submission. This was my first match outside of my local club. It was the first outdoor match i'd shot in 30 years!!! What a blast! Great club, great guys and great facility! Immediately after our discussion I thought that this is something I should remember and ask the SO or MD before shooting the stage. I am by no means knocking the rulebook and totally understand that somethings are open to club interpretation... I was more than willing to accept the PE, but after we discussed it the SO decided to lift it.

Jim, your first sentence is exactly how I understand it. Apparently our local club guys see it that way too, as I have never been called on it before.

[Jane]

2) But for the next string where you shoot, then move to the barrel: get the new mag, drop the old into the hand and stick the new one in, start moving and while moving get the old mag into a pocket. This will save time, yes?

This is what I do at our local club. However, yesterday I shot a match at another club and was given a procedural for moving before my mag was stowed. After we discussed it they lifted the procedural. Now I have looked thru the rulebook and do not find any real clear answers... I feel this is the fastest way to do this part of the classifier though.

Rules on this have been consistent for a number of years.

In the current rulebook -

3.6.4 - "A shooter may not leave cover, cross or enter any openings with an empty firearm"

3.4.4 - "A firearm is deemed reloaded when the magazine is fully seated and the slide is fully forward or the revolver cylinder is closed and the firearm contains at least one unfired cartridge in the chamber, magazine, or cylinder."

Thus, you can leave cover when the gun is in that condition - mag is seated and slide is forward.

However

3.7 - "At no time is it permissible to fire while holding a magazine, speed loader/moon clip, or loose ammunition."

Thus you need to have the mag stowed before actually taking a shot following the reload.

[Distant Thunder]

Drop the mag, tuck it inside the belt/pant front, then grab the new mag. This is the fastest.

Tried this for a while....maybe I'm just too fat (and i'm really not THAT fat LOL).

I leave a mag in the front pocket, helps keep it open.

Gonna try the Vest Pocket idea rowdy suggested... but I have a classifier tonight, so I'm sticking with what works for today.

I believe the new PC phrase is "circumference challenged" not fat.

[racknrider]

My thought process is that all reloads must be performed behind cover and the retention of the magazine is a vital part of the loaded chamber so the reload is not complete until said magazine is stored, but since I have been out voted by more experienced IDPAers I digress.

[CrashDodson]

My thought process is that all reloads must be performed behind cover and the retention of the magazine is a vital part of the loaded chamber so the reload is not complete until said magazine is stored, but since I have been out voted by more experienced IDPAers I digress.

Legally once the new magazine is seated and as long as your slide is in battery you are free to move.

[BillR1]

My thought process is that all reloads must be performed behind cover and the retention of the magazine is a vital part of the loaded chamber so the reload is not complete until said magazine is stored, but since I have been out voted by more experienced IDPAers I digress.

Legally once the new magazine is seated and as long as your slide is in battery you are free to move.

^^^This!

[Thomas H]

2) But for the next string where you shoot, then move to the barrel: get the new mag, drop the old into the hand and stick the new one in, start moving and while moving get the old mag into a pocket. This will save time, yes?

This is what I do at our local club. However, yesterday I shot a match at another club and was given a procedural for moving before my mag was stowed. After we discussed it they lifted the procedural. Now I have looked thru the rulebook and do not find any real clear answers... I feel this is the fastest way to do this part of the classifier though.

Every situation cannot be expressly addressed or the rule book would look like the US tax code. Based on my reading of 3.4.2, 3.6.1, and 8.6.1.1 I say PE. Might make a good clarification submission.

Doesn't really need a clarification. As people have correctly shown, once the magazine is inserted and the slide is forward, the reload is finished. As such, movement out of cover (such as in the classifier) is legal at that time.

What happens to the old magazine and what you do with it is not important until you take your next shot. (Unless you drop the magazine. That, of course, would be a procedural.) The magazine only needs to be stowed prior to your next shot.

As such, doing this sort of reload can save you time, IF it allows you to move in a way that you otherwise couldn't. Not much time, sure, but any little bit helps.