Do You Want PCC?

[d_striker]

One positive thing I can say about the PCC discussion is that it pretty much shut down the CO arguments. (that's about the only positive thing I can think of). If PCC is as popular as some of it's proponents say, why can't it be popular enough to start it's own matches (oh wait, these same proponents have already said that it isn't popular enough yet) Neither 3 gun or pistol are good fits to piggyback match PCC, maybe they should just start with small matches and see if it grows rather than try to fit it into established (and well attended) match structures.

Yeah. Now that CO is officially a provisional division, we'll just have to sit back and observe. If it works as planned, great. If not, I hope there isn't too much butt hurt when it's taken away.

Now that the PCC debate has run its course, we can start arguing about the next provisional division. Let's keep them coming.

[Bkreutz]

One positive thing I can say about the PCC discussion is that it pretty much shut down the CO arguments. (that's about the only positive thing I can think of). If PCC is as popular as some of it's proponents say, why can't it be popular enough to start it's own matches (oh wait, these same proponents have already said that it isn't popular enough yet) Neither 3 gun or pistol are good fits to piggyback match PCC, maybe they should just start with small matches and see if it grows rather than try to fit it into established (and well attended) match structures.

Yeah. Now that CO is officially a provisional division, we'll just have to sit back and observe. If it works as planned, great. If not, I hope there isn't too much butt hurt when it's taken away.

Now that the PCC debate has run its course, we can start arguing about the next provisional division. Let's keep them coming.

One can only hope the debate has run it's course. I'm not convinced of that, it's a whole different debate than adding a pistol division to USPSA handgun matches.

[Alaskapopo]

Don't care, as long as it doesn't cause the matches to change their format or stages and doesn't slow down the match.

^^^ This.

It's already been established in the PCC thread that it will change the match. When PCC advocates were confronted with certain shooting challenges commonly seen in handgun matches that would not be possible with a rifle, the responses went full retard.

There's talk of adding additional shooting boxes just for the PCC shooters that would not be able to complete the challenge or not including shooting challenges that include using a rope for support while in a hard lean because they are not safe.

That is an interesting version of the actual reality a very entertaining one but not true.

Pat

[d_striker]

Don't care, as long as it doesn't cause the matches to change their format or stages and doesn't slow down the match.

^^^ This.

It's already been established in the PCC thread that it will change the match. When PCC advocates were confronted with certain shooting challenges commonly seen in handgun matches that would not be possible with a rifle, the responses went full retard.

There's talk of adding additional shooting boxes just for the PCC shooters that would not be able to complete the challenge or not including shooting challenges that include using a rope for support while in a hard lean because they are not safe.

That is an interesting version of the actual reality a very entertaining one but not true.

Pat

Really? I believe that you were the one that said part of the issue could be solved by adding PCC specific shooting boxes in certain spots. I design stages regularly and I'm not going to approach stage design with the constant thought of whether a PCC shooter will be able to complete the challenge. If you can't, sorry.

I'm not sure if it was you or not that suggested any handgun shooting challenge where the a shooter's torso is far beyond its center of gravity (hard leans, ropes, etc) are not safe and probably shouldn't be in handgun matches anyway.

[Alaskapopo]

Don't care, as long as it doesn't cause the matches to change their format or stages and doesn't slow down the match.

^^^ This.

It's already been established in the PCC thread that it will change the match. When PCC advocates were confronted with certain shooting challenges commonly seen in handgun matches that would not be possible with a rifle, the responses went full retard.

There's talk of adding additional shooting boxes just for the PCC shooters that would not be able to complete the challenge or not including shooting challenges that include using a rope for support while in a hard lean because they are not safe.

That is an interesting version of the actual reality a very entertaining one but not true.

Pat

Really? I believe that you were the one that said part of the issue could be solved by adding PCC specific shooting boxes in certain spots. I design stages regularly and I'm not going to approach stage design with the constant thought of whether a PCC shooter will be able to complete the challenge. If you can't, sorry.

I'm not sure if it was you or not that suggested any handgun shooting challenge where the a shooter's torso is far beyond its center of gravity (hard leans, ropes, etc) are not safe and probably shouldn't be in handgun matches anyway.

I was not the one who proposed the boxes although its an incredibly simple fix for that 1 retarded stage in 200 (like the hanging from the ropes one). I have designed stages for a long time that work with both 5.56 rifles and pistols. (CQB short courses no steel used when rifles used) and its not that hard. Its not brain surgery. Its like this is making people lose their minds. I was the one against potential safety problems with the leading from the rope next to a platform edge. I tend to think of the shooters we have had at a match some over 65 and that is asking for problems.But hey its your range do what you want.

Edited February 7, 2016 by Alaskapopo

[d_striker]

I was not the one who proposed the boxes although its an incredibly simple fix for that 1 retarded stage in 200 (like the hanging from the ropes one). I have designed stages for a long time that work with both 5.56 rifles and pistols. (CQB short courses) and its not that hard. Its not brain surgery. Its like this is making people lose their minds.

You may think it's retarded but it's a unique shooting challenge. It doesn't matter if it's 1 stage in 200 or even 1 stage in 500. Asking clubs to not include them anymore is, in fact, letting PCC affect stage design.

I've designed stages that would work for both rifles and pistols as well. That's not the point. It's as if you're saying that since it's possible to design stages that work for both, we should make all stages work for PCC. You're welcome to do so. All I'm saying is that I'm personally not going make a deliberate effort to.

[Alaskapopo]

I was not the one who proposed the boxes although its an incredibly simple fix for that 1 retarded stage in 200 (like the hanging from the ropes one). I have designed stages for a long time that work with both 5.56 rifles and pistols. (CQB short courses) and its not that hard. Its not brain surgery. Its like this is making people lose their minds.

You may think it's retarded but it's a unique shooting challenge. It doesn't matter if it's 1 stage in 200 or even 1 stage in 500. Asking clubs to not include them anymore is, in fact, letting PCC affect stage design.

I've designed stages that would work for both rifles and pistols as well. That's not the point. It's as if you're saying that since it's possible to design stages that work for both, we should make all stages work for PCC. You're welcome to do so. All I'm saying is that I'm personally not going make a deliberate effort to.

I am sure all kinds of retarded ideas could be unique shooting challenges like standing on one leg using your off hand to rub your head while shooting would be a unique shooting challenge but retarded none the less. Where I am at I have never shot a stage at a USPSA match I could not have shot with a PCC. I am all for letting individual clubs now allow the division if they so chose but don't rain on my parade or the majority of other shooters according to this poll because you have a bias against shooting carbines.

[d_striker]

I was not the one who proposed the boxes although its an incredibly simple fix for that 1 retarded stage in 200 (like the hanging from the ropes one). I have designed stages for a long time that work with both 5.56 rifles and pistols. (CQB short courses) and its not that hard. Its not brain surgery. Its like this is making people lose their minds.

You may think it's retarded but it's a unique shooting challenge. It doesn't matter if it's 1 stage in 200 or even 1 stage in 500. Asking clubs to not include them anymore is, in fact, letting PCC affect stage design.

I've designed stages that would work for both rifles and pistols as well. That's not the point. It's as if you're saying that since it's possible to design stages that work for both, we should make all stages work for PCC. You're welcome to do so. All I'm saying is that I'm personally not going make a deliberate effort to.

I am sure all kinds of retarded ideas could be unique shooting challenges like standing on one leg using your off hand to rub your head while shooting would be a unique shooting challenge but retarded none the less. Where I am at I have never shot a stage at a USPSA match I could not have shot with a PCC. I am all for letting individual clubs now allow the division if they so chose but don't rain on my parade or the majority of other shooters according to this poll because you have a bias against shooting carbines.

Yes, that's exactly like shooting a challenge SHO/WHO in a hard lean.

And thanks for showing everyone in this thread the type of full retard comments I was referring to in the other thread.

Edited February 7, 2016 by d_striker

[Alaskapopo]

I was not the one who proposed the boxes although its an incredibly simple fix for that 1 retarded stage in 200 (like the hanging from the ropes one). I have designed stages for a long time that work with both 5.56 rifles and pistols. (CQB short courses) and its not that hard. Its not brain surgery. Its like this is making people lose their minds.

You may think it's retarded but it's a unique shooting challenge. It doesn't matter if it's 1 stage in 200 or even 1 stage in 500. Asking clubs to not include them anymore is, in fact, letting PCC affect stage design.

I've designed stages that would work for both rifles and pistols as well. That's not the point. It's as if you're saying that since it's possible to design stages that work for both, we should make all stages work for PCC. You're welcome to do so. All I'm saying is that I'm personally not going make a deliberate effort to.

I am sure all kinds of retarded ideas could be unique shooting challenges like standing on one leg using your off hand to rub your head while shooting would be a unique shooting challenge but retarded none the less. Where I am at I have never shot a stage at a USPSA match I could not have shot with a PCC. I am all for letting individual clubs now allow the division if they so chose but don't rain on my parade or the majority of other shooters according to this poll because you have a bias against shooting carbines.

Yes, that's exactly like shooting a challenge SHO/WHO in a hard lean.

And thanks for showing everyone in this thread the type of full retard comments I was referring to in the other thread.

Actually you did that. Well thats not quite fair not really retarded but rather whinny comments. (not an insult just an observations of the comments made in the negative. Most don't hold water. Like a little kid playing the what if game with his Karate/Judo instructor) The fact is matches have been doing it already with out the Chicken little predictions of the sky will fall happening. Lets give it a try as a provision division and we will see if any of the nay Sayers predictions bear fruit.

Edited February 7, 2016 by Alaskapopo

[d_striker]

Lol. I think I'm done here.

[tarosean]

Id try it once or twice...

[Bkreutz]

Lol. I think I'm done here.

I have to agree, it seems that the tactic is to say the same thing over and over again. I think the cause may be "cabin fever".

[ChuckS]

Lol. I think I'm done here.

I have to agree, it seems that the tactic is to say the same thing over and over again. I think the cause may be "cabin fever".

What is that?

[OPENB]

I agree we're talking in circles in 2 different threads. When DNROI comes out with something next month, the real howling will begin.

[OPENB]

And the original purpose of this thread shows a lead developing. As if that would matter to anyone.

Edited February 7, 2016 by OPENB

[FearsomeCritter]

I'm all for it for the following reasons:

-It would be super fun

-Excuse to by another gun

-Cheap to run

-I can just shoot PCC if I don't feel like reloading after work

I don't think it would slow down club matches beyond the time added for the admittedly modest increase in participants, and most club directors have the foresight to avoid letting people shoot two divisions in the same match. Personally, I've only shot 3-4 stages in the last few years that would require modification for PCC, depending on how the rules shake out. I haven't read all 35 pages regarding this topic in the rules section, but I don't see what the big deal with shooting a PCC one handed for those shots is. In any case, the minor alteration of a very small fraction of stages for the minority of people who are going to be shooting this division regularly is an acceptable trade off to get some more shooters in the sport.

[chevyoneton]

I voted yes because I have wanted to shoot a PPC in a USPSA style match for some time. As I age my eyesight is getting worse and I am at a point that I think a dot is the way to go. Since I have several pistol caliber carbines and about half already have dots mounted I am in business for a PPC shoot without having to go all "Open" ($$$$$) handgun and stuff. I don't want any special stage designs, solving issues will be part of the fun (just like with a pistol) and if I can't safely get at a target, so be it. I don't think I would slow the match down any. For one thing, I will be spending less time picking up magazines since I will be running 30's or at least 20's. I really want to shoot a NRA Action match with a PPC. But can just imagine the lead balloon that would be at the local range/club that has NRA Action.

[diablodawg]

For people that will never shoot it, I don't get the resistance.

State up front that people need to man up and shoot the hard lean/rope type stages with one arm or accept the procedurals. Stop acting like we don't make stage design decisions for different guns- 8 round arrays are for a reason, as are no tiny low ports that eliminate dot and big stick use. Don't pretend like we don't make general exceptions either; what happens when an amputee shows up to shoot one of your vaunted rope stages? One of the proudest moments of my time as a shooter was seeing a vet in a wheel chair wheeling around the stages while others reloaded his mags with a huge shit-eating grin on his face. Level III match? To him it was.

We thrive because we present a variety of interesting shooting challenges that a variety of people with a variety of guns can do. So long as it doesn't slow the match down (1 gun per shooter solves this) or present safety problems (slung, flagged, open, cased- they are all equally safe) why does anyone care? My somewhat gun-shy wife shot my PCC for the first time today- not only did she claim if for her own, she is interested in shooting matches with it! This is a perfect venue for new and especially junior shooters.

[Strick]

For people that will never shoot it, I don't get the resistance.

We thrive because we present a variety of interesting shooting challenges that a variety of people with a variety of guns can do. So long as it doesn't slow the match down (1 gun per shooter solves this) or present safety problems (slung, flagged, open, cased- they are all equally safe) why does anyone care?

Because no matter how you present it, no matter how much fun is claimed to be had it is still a rifle at a handgun match. That will creep into matches and stage design and I don't think that is worth it.

[FearsomeCritter]

For people that will never shoot it, I don't get the resistance.

We thrive because we present a variety of interesting shooting challenges that a variety of people with a variety of guns can do. So long as it doesn't slow the match down (1 gun per shooter solves this) or present safety problems (slung, flagged, open, cased- they are all equally safe) why does anyone care?

Because no matter how you present it, no matter how much fun is claimed to be had it is still a rifle at a handgun match. That will creep into matches and stage design and I don't think that is worth it.

What specifically are you worried about creeping into stage designs? Nay-sayers are all worried about "oh PCC is gonna change stages and also that is a bad thing." Heck, I'll give you the second part of that argument, but it is difficult to think of of these changes would be -- it is just some vague, nebulous fear. There isn't a stage out there that I would not be able to complete with a PCC vs my handgun. Yeah maybe uprange starts will require some other equivalent for PCC but that isn't going to change the stage for the handgunners and I don't see those things not being included in future matches just because some people are shooting PCC.

[Strick]

For people that will never shoot it, I don't get the resistance.

We thrive because we present a variety of interesting shooting challenges that a variety of people with a variety of guns can do. So long as it doesn't slow the match down (1 gun per shooter solves this) or present safety problems (slung, flagged, open, cased- they are all equally safe) why does anyone care?

Because no matter how you present it, no matter how much fun is claimed to be had it is still a rifle at a handgun match. That will creep into matches and stage design and I don't think that is worth it.

What specifically are you worried about creeping into stage designs? Nay-sayers are all worried about "oh PCC is gonna change stages and also that is a bad thing." Heck, I'll give you the second part of that argument, but it is difficult to think of of these changes would be -- it is just some vague, nebulous fear. There isn't a stage out there that I would not be able to complete with a PCC vs my handgun. Yeah maybe uprange starts will require some other equivalent for PCC but that isn't going to change the stage for the handgunners and I don't see those things not being included in future matches just because some people are shooting PCC.

Nay-sayers.....haters......I just don't get it.

Anyway. There are a few stage challenges that have become regular occurrences at major matches, such as hard leans, etc...that have already been mentioned. If there is PCC it will be inevitable that those will disappear. Beyond that I have noticed a definite trend toward target presentations to either slow down the top shooters or challenge the even best open gun shooters in accuracy. Targets and stages such as stacked targets/no-shoots at 20 yards n swingers, multiple head shot targets at 20 yards, multiple no-shoots surrounding targets at distance. Add the desire by some to shoot easy platform (which I suspect is the overwhelming desire for PCC) I suspect that MD's will go even further with the ....."this will get them". This does nothing to make the average and most abundant type of shooter in USPSA welcome.

[PPGMD]

Or it could be that PCC shooters would have to eat the mikes/FTEs/penalties unless they figure out how to shoot them.

[FearsomeCritter]

For people that will never shoot it, I don't get the resistance.

We thrive because we present a variety of interesting shooting challenges that a variety of people with a variety of guns can do. So long as it doesn't slow the match down (1 gun per shooter solves this) or present safety problems (slung, flagged, open, cased- they are all equally safe) why does anyone care?

Because no matter how you present it, no matter how much fun is claimed to be had it is still a rifle at a handgun match. That will creep into matches and stage design and I don't think that is worth it.

What specifically are you worried about creeping into stage designs? Nay-sayers are all worried about "oh PCC is gonna change stages and also that is a bad thing." Heck, I'll give you the second part of that argument, but it is difficult to think of of these changes would be -- it is just some vague, nebulous fear. There isn't a stage out there that I would not be able to complete with a PCC vs my handgun. Yeah maybe uprange starts will require some other equivalent for PCC but that isn't going to change the stage for the handgunners and I don't see those things not being included in future matches just because some people are shooting PCC.

Nay-sayers.....haters......I just don't get it.

Anyway. There are a few stage challenges that have become regular occurrences at major matches, such as hard leans, etc...that have already been mentioned. If there is PCC it will be inevitable that those will disappear. Beyond that I have noticed a definite trend toward target presentations to either slow down the top shooters or challenge the even best open gun shooters in accuracy. Targets and stages such as stacked targets/no-shoots at 20 yards n swingers, multiple head shot targets at 20 yards, multiple no-shoots surrounding targets at distance. Add the desire by some to shoot easy platform (which I suspect is the overwhelming desire for PCC) I suspect that MD's will go even further with the ....."this will get them". This does nothing to make the average and most abundant type of shooter in USPSA welcome.

Hard leans can be done with PCC, and in any case they won't disappear from major matches or even club matches to make it a little easier on the minority of people shooting PCC. Big matches already have all the difficult distance shots anyway. MDs are still going to look at a match and find that balance between being hard and fun, distance and hoser to keep people coming back. I definitely think some club matches will include more distance/accuracy targets and by that I mean start including them at all since, at least around here, those targets are very few. Can't see that being a huge disservice, especially since it is increased match practice for bigger matches with that stuff in spades. So end result is that maybe some local matches get a little harder (which I suspect is the overwhelming fear of those opposed).

[TaterHead]

Speaking as an RO, (CRO actually), I will not run rifles at a pistol match. I just won't. If someone wants to shoot a rifle, there are plenty of other competitions. My reasons have likely already been stated in this thread somewhere. Major matches need experienced staff, who are always volunteers. I will not volunteer at a rifle match.

[Racinready300ex]

All this talk of PCC not being able to do what a pistol can. What about the other way around?

How hard is a 10-15 yard shot with a rifle? What happens when a stage is set up to challenge a PCC shooter? Will pistol shooters still be able to do it? Will it be a fun stage for them? How long will you shoot PCC at these close easy targets we shoot with hand guns?

Md's will need to find a balance to keep everyone interested once the newness of the division wears off.