Sarge Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 Here's another question. Can I legally shoot from within the free fire zone if I have one foot on the top of the fault line with the other in the air so that nothing is touching inside the fault lines? I had this question at the OH state match last year and was expressly informed by the CRO (who has been doing this stuff a long long time and has worked many nationals) that it was totally cool to do so. At first glance, I didn't think it was legal, but it was explained to me that by the definition I am not outside of the free fire zone. Gaming? Hell yes. Cheating? No. yep. that one is easy. fault lines are inside the shooting area. Similar situation came up at columbia cascade section last year, where you pretty much had to stand on the fault lines to lean far enough over to get to a target. Here's a trickier one..... what if you leave the ground from inside the fault lines, and land outside.... Do you have to actually be touching inside, or can you keep shooting with both feet in the air until you touch outside? All the times I've shot while falling out of a box I've still had one foot on the ground for more stability, but I think it would still be ok to shoot if that foot came up, until I touch something outside the shooting area. That's easy too. Of course you can. You're not faulting until you touch something Ok, what about if you are outside the shooting area and jump in.... do you have to touch something inside before you can start shooting?You have to re establish yourself in the shooting area first Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrydoc Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 (edited) I just went read 10.2.1 They don't mention being "outside" the shooting area. If your foot touches the ground outside the shooting area, you are no longer "inside" the shooting area. I think the opposite would be true. If the stage briefing states that you must be outside the shooting area and one foot is touching inside the shooting area, you are no longer outside the shooting area. If I were RO'ing a shooter that wanted to stand with one foot in and one foot out, I wouldn't start him until he, in my opinion, complied with the starting position. If he had a problem, we would call the range master. Exactly correct Barry, demonstrate to every squad how you want them to start and don't start them until they are in the demonstrated position. Stand them down and tell em to take it up the chain if they have an issue Edited February 2, 2016 by terrydoc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 Here's another question. Can I legally shoot from within the free fire zone if I have one foot on the top of the fault line with the other in the air so that nothing is touching inside the fault lines? I had this question at the OH state match last year and was expressly informed by the CRO (who has been doing this stuff a long long time and has worked many nationals) that it was totally cool to do so. At first glance, I didn't think it was legal, but it was explained to me that by the definition I am not outside of the free fire zone. Gaming? Hell yes. Cheating? No. yep. that one is easy. fault lines are inside the shooting area. Similar situation came up at columbia cascade section last year, where you pretty much had to stand on the fault lines to lean far enough over to get to a target. Here's a trickier one..... what if you leave the ground from inside the fault lines, and land outside.... Do you have to actually be touching inside, or can you keep shooting with both feet in the air until you touch outside? All the times I've shot while falling out of a box I've still had one foot on the ground for more stability, but I think it would still be ok to shoot if that foot came up, until I touch something outside the shooting area. That's easy too. Of course you can. You're not faulting until you touch something Ok, what about if you are outside the shooting area and jump in.... do you have to touch something inside before you can start shooting?You have to re establish yourself in the shooting area first that is my take on it as well, even tho there don't appear to be any actual rules related to the topic, just logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makdaddy Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 WSB says Start anywhere standing outside the shooting area. If I have one foot outside the shooting area, I am outside the shooting area correct? i think the answer is no.. key word here is "standing".. you can stand on one foot outside the shooting area with your other foot suspended in the air over inside shooting area , that would work. if it touches fault line or inside shooting area, that would be straddling IMHO.. beware the man of few posts.. still learning Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 Here's another question. Can I legally shoot from within the free fire zone if I have one foot on the top of the fault line with the other in the air so that nothing is touching inside the fault lines? I had this question at the OH state match last year and was expressly informed by the CRO (who has been doing this stuff a long long time and has worked many nationals) that it was totally cool to do so. At first glance, I didn't think it was legal, but it was explained to me that by the definition I am not outside of the free fire zone. Gaming? Hell yes. Cheating? No. yep. that one is easy. fault lines are inside the shooting area. Similar situation came up at columbia cascade section last year, where you pretty much had to stand on the fault lines to lean far enough over to get to a target. Here's a trickier one..... what if you leave the ground from inside the fault lines, and land outside.... Do you have to actually be touching inside, or can you keep shooting with both feet in the air until you touch outside? All the times I've shot while falling out of a box I've still had one foot on the ground for more stability, but I think it would still be ok to shoot if that foot came up, until I touch something outside the shooting area. That's easy too. Of course you can. You're not faulting until you touch something Ok, what about if you are outside the shooting area and jump in.... do you have to touch something inside before you can start shooting?You have to re establish yourself in the shooting area first that is my take on it as well, even tho there don't appear to be any actual rules related to the topic, just logic.Last sentence of 10.2.1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 (edited) Last sentence of 10.2.1 thank you for the correction. I researched that in the past under the 2010 rules, and missed that change when the 2014 rules came out. I am now a little smarter than I was. Edited February 2, 2016 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 Last sentence of 10.2.1thank you for the correction. I researched that in the past under the 2010 rules, and missed that change when the 2014 rules came out. I am now a little smarter than I was.We all are. I had to find it so I got do research . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 (edited) So if the starting position is defined as standing within the shooting area, can I start standing wholly on top of the fault lines with no part of me touching the ground inside or outside since they are part of the shooting area? How about if it says standing within the fault lines? Edited February 2, 2016 by Jake Di Vita Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 Well, since the fault lines themselves are considered part of the shooting area, and we can stand on them when shooting, I would think we can stand wholly on them. Not sure I'd want to, balance being what it is, but someone could do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robb315 Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 (edited) So if the starting position is defined as standing within the shooting area, can I start standing wholly on top of the fault lines with no part of me touching the ground inside or outside since they are part of the shooting area? How about if it says standing within the fault lines?Yes.No different than standing on a box behind a barricade to start. (Shooting box, not a cube) Edited February 2, 2016 by robb315 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 So if the starting position is defined as standing within the shooting area, can I start standing wholly on top of the fault lines with no part of me touching the ground inside or outside since they are part of the shooting area? How about if it says standing within the fault lines?Yes.No different than standing on a box behind a barricade to start. (Shooting box, not a cube) That's the scenario I had in my head. I have been told I couldn't do that more than once in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robb315 Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 (edited) So if the starting position is defined as standing within the shooting area, can I start standing wholly on top of the fault lines with no part of me touching the ground inside or outside since they are part of the shooting area? How about if it says standing within the fault lines?Yes.No different than standing on a box behind a barricade to start. (Shooting box, not a cube) That's the scenario I had in my head. I have been told I couldn't do that more than once in the past.As long as you aren't touching the ground outside the box or if there is the stipulation 'behind barricade' and your feet are sticking out to the sides it's good to go. Production Nats this year the question came up in my squad on a barricade stage and the answer was that it was ok. The 2x4's were on edge though so it would have been real awkward. Edited February 2, 2016 by robb315 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted February 3, 2016 Share Posted February 3, 2016 I have seen some real top level gaming on toes and heels touching start positions. My favorite start position is Standing anywhere inside the shooting area, facing any direction, hands above respective shoulders. If only it was hands anywhere except touching gun/reloading devices it would be perfect...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted February 3, 2016 Share Posted February 3, 2016 Gaming is doing whatever you can that is within the rules. Cheating is going outside of the rules. They are not the same thing and shouldn't be referred to as such.standing with one foot inside the shooting area when you're supposed to be outside is against the rules. I only used the word 'game' in quote marks because the OP used it. Show me which rule it violates. That's the beautiful part -- I don't have to as your RO. I just decline to start you until your feet are in the correct position. Check the final sentence in 8.3.1: 8.3.1 “Make Ready” – This command signifies the start of “the Course of Fire”. Under the direct supervision of the Range Officer the competitor must face down range, or in a safe direction as specified by the Range Officer, fit eye and hearing protection, and prepare the handgun in accordance with the written stage briefing. The competitor must then assume the specified start position. The Range Officer will not proceed with any further range commands until the competitor is still and is in the correct start position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted February 3, 2016 Share Posted February 3, 2016 Here's another question. Can I legally shoot from within the free fire zone if I have one foot on the top of the fault line with the other in the air so that nothing is touching inside the fault lines? I had this question at the OH state match last year and was expressly informed by the CRO (who has been doing this stuff a long long time and has worked many nationals) that it was totally cool to do so. At first glance, I didn't think it was legal, but it was explained to me that by the definition I am not outside of the free fire zone. Gaming? Hell yes. Cheating? No. yep. that one is easy. fault lines are inside the shooting area. Similar situation came up at columbia cascade section last year, where you pretty much had to stand on the fault lines to lean far enough over to get to a target. Here's a trickier one..... what if you leave the ground from inside the fault lines, and land outside.... Do you have to actually be touching inside, or can you keep shooting with both feet in the air until you touch outside? All the times I've shot while falling out of a box I've still had one foot on the ground for more stability, but I think it would still be ok to shoot if that foot came up, until I touch something outside the shooting area. That's easy too. Of course you can. You're not faulting until you touch something Ok, what about if you are outside the shooting area and jump in.... do you have to touch something inside before you can start shooting?You have to re establish yourself in the shooting area first Moto -- it probably depends on how the stage description was written -- and I suspect that 10.2.2 would come into play...... Kevin -- if you're thinking about the language in 10.2.1, that seems to apply only if you've left a shooting area -- so not sure that rule would fly if the competitor leapt from the start position into the shooting area and fired shots while in the air.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted February 3, 2016 Share Posted February 3, 2016 So if the starting position is defined as standing within the shooting area, can I start standing wholly on top of the fault lines with no part of me touching the ground inside or outside since they are part of the shooting area? How about if it says standing within the fault lines? I've been started that way at some stages -- explicitly told it was a legal position for that stage -- and told to get down on other stages, possibly at the same match..... It'll depend on the WSB and what the CRO/RM decide to do.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted February 3, 2016 Share Posted February 3, 2016 So if the starting position is defined as standing within the shooting area, can I start standing wholly on top of the fault lines with no part of me touching the ground inside or outside since they are part of the shooting area? How about if it says standing within the fault lines? I've been started that way at some stages -- explicitly told it was a legal position for that stage -- and told to get down on other stages, possibly at the same match..... It'll depend on the WSB and what the CRO/RM decide to do.... It'd be nice to have a definitive 100% ruling on that if there's that much subjectivity to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 3, 2016 Share Posted February 3, 2016 Here's another question. Can I legally shoot from within the free fire zone if I have one foot on the top of the fault line with the other in the air so that nothing is touching inside the fault lines? I had this question at the OH state match last year and was expressly informed by the CRO (who has been doing this stuff a long long time and has worked many nationals) that it was totally cool to do so. At first glance, I didn't think it was legal, but it was explained to me that by the definition I am not outside of the free fire zone. Gaming? Hell yes. Cheating? No. yep. that one is easy. fault lines are inside the shooting area. Similar situation came up at columbia cascade section last year, where you pretty much had to stand on the fault lines to lean far enough over to get to a target. Here's a trickier one..... what if you leave the ground from inside the fault lines, and land outside.... Do you have to actually be touching inside, or can you keep shooting with both feet in the air until you touch outside? All the times I've shot while falling out of a box I've still had one foot on the ground for more stability, but I think it would still be ok to shoot if that foot came up, until I touch something outside the shooting area. That's easy too. Of course you can. You're not faulting until you touch something Ok, what about if you are outside the shooting area and jump in.... do you have to touch something inside before you can start shooting?You have to re establish yourself in the shooting area first Moto -- it probably depends on how the stage description was written -- and I suspect that 10.2.2 would come into play......Kevin -- if you're thinking about the language in 10.2.1, that seems to apply only if you've left a shooting area -- so not sure that rule would fly if the competitor leapt from the start position into the shooting area and fired shots while in the air.... Come on! You have to at least get a foot down inside and get the trailing foot in the air to no longer be considered outside the shooting area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted February 3, 2016 Share Posted February 3, 2016 So if the starting position is defined as standing within the shooting area, can I start standing wholly on top of the fault lines with no part of me touching the ground inside or outside since they are part of the shooting area? How about if it says standing within the fault lines? I've been started that way at some stages -- explicitly told it was a legal position for that stage -- and told to get down on other stages, possibly at the same match..... It'll depend on the WSB and what the CRO/RM decide to do.... It'd be nice to have a definitive 100% ruling on that if there's that much subjectivity to it. I think it comes down to stage designer intent, CRO preference and how the WSB is written. If I'm RMing a match, I don't care whether we allow it or not, I do care that we communicate our decision effectively, consistently, and that it doesn't create an enforcement nightmare..... In other words it's all about the stage design and buildout and the writing of the WSB. Do the work before the first shot is fired and everyone working can have an easy match to run..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted February 3, 2016 Share Posted February 3, 2016 Here's another question. Can I legally shoot from within the free fire zone if I have one foot on the top of the fault line with the other in the air so that nothing is touching inside the fault lines? I had this question at the OH state match last year and was expressly informed by the CRO (who has been doing this stuff a long long time and has worked many nationals) that it was totally cool to do so. At first glance, I didn't think it was legal, but it was explained to me that by the definition I am not outside of the free fire zone. Gaming? Hell yes. Cheating? No. yep. that one is easy. fault lines are inside the shooting area. Similar situation came up at columbia cascade section last year, where you pretty much had to stand on the fault lines to lean far enough over to get to a target. Here's a trickier one..... what if you leave the ground from inside the fault lines, and land outside.... Do you have to actually be touching inside, or can you keep shooting with both feet in the air until you touch outside? All the times I've shot while falling out of a box I've still had one foot on the ground for more stability, but I think it would still be ok to shoot if that foot came up, until I touch something outside the shooting area. That's easy too. Of course you can. You're not faulting until you touch something Ok, what about if you are outside the shooting area and jump in.... do you have to touch something inside before you can start shooting?You have to re establish yourself in the shooting area first Moto -- it probably depends on how the stage description was written -- and I suspect that 10.2.2 would come into play......Kevin -- if you're thinking about the language in 10.2.1, that seems to apply only if you've left a shooting area -- so not sure that rule would fly if the competitor leapt from the start position into the shooting area and fired shots while in the air.... Come on! You have to at least get a foot down inside and get the trailing foot in the air to no longer be considered outside the shooting area. If you cite 10.2.1 as the rule in support of that -- I probably will vote to overturn that penalty. Now -- depending on how the WSB is written, I'll give you the penalty under 10.2.2..... In other words -- I hear what your saying, and want to help you make the call arbitration proof..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted February 3, 2016 Share Posted February 3, 2016 Kevin -- if you're thinking about the language in 10.2.1, that seems to apply only if you've left a shooting area -- so not sure that rule would fly if the competitor leapt from the start position into the shooting area and fired shots while in the air.... I am pretty sure that anybody at a sanctioned match has left a shooting area some time in their shooting career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrydoc Posted February 3, 2016 Share Posted February 3, 2016 Well, since the fault lines themselves are considered part of the shooting area, and we can stand on them when shooting, I would think we can stand wholly on them. Not sure I'd want to, balance being what it is, but someone could do it. see my post #52 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
open17 Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 "Shooting area" is no different than a fault line. Or a start box (4 fault lines configured in a square). If you are touching the ground outside, you are OUT. So one foot out and one foot in is OUT-------unless the WSB states something like "Standing completely outside the shooting area". Not sure how that would fly at a level 2 or Level 3, but I see it at Level 1's. The rules are the rules for all level of matches. I think at level II and III matcges the WSB are better so they would tend to write them without so much room to game it. When it says standing outside the shooting area, even if you are standing on the fault line touching outside the fault line you would be considered outside the shooting area. Rules the same for all levels? Really. 1.1.5.1 Level I matches may use shooting boxes, specify where or when specific target arrays may be engaged and specify mandatory reloads in short and medium courses only. Long courses are exclusively governed by 1.1.5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjb45 Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 It seems to me the definition of outside the shooting area is clearly defined. Interpreting it differently because of different situation seems wrong. If one foot is inside the shooting area and and one out is declared outside the shooting area in one situation, the same logic has to apply in all situations. This is a prime situation where the converse of the rule is not valid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 It seems to me the definition of outside the shooting area is clearly defined. Interpreting it differently because of different situation seems wrong. If one foot is inside the shooting area and and one out is declared outside the shooting area in one situation, the same logic has to apply in all situations. This is a prime situation where the converse of the rule is not valid. the bolded part is not true. that is a misconception. one foot in and one foot out is NOT defined as outside the shooting area, it's simply defined as faulting (and a procedural). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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