Standing outside the shooting area

[bret]

WSB

Start position anywhere outside shooting area.

Or sometimes the WSB says

Standing anywhere outside the shooting area.

So since you can get faulted for touching outside the shooting area, you are outside the shooting area.

I see 10.2.1 as indicating the penalty for faulting a line while firing. It doesn't say anything about whether you're considered wholly inside, partially inside, etc, with the exception of defining completely leaving the shooting area in this section:

Shots fired after completely (both feet out and touching the ground) leaving a shooting area will be penalized one penalty per shot until the competitor establishes a presence in a new shooting area with at least one foot on the ground inside the shooting area.

It just defines what penalties you get for faulting the line to various degrees. By your own logic, if I say you must be outside the shooting area, wouldn't you be faulting the line by having one foot inside?

Since you can be faulted for having a foot outside the shooting area, you are not in the shooting area.

In the rules it does not define Standing, Inside, Outside.

If the WSB says inside the shooting area, you have to be completely inside the shooting area.

If WSB says wholly or completely outside of the shooting area you have to be completely outside of it.

WSB that say anywhere outside of shooting area, this is where we can game it. IMO.

[bret]

The penalty for having a foot out of the shooting area, or being partially out, is for failing to comply with the stage description. I would asses the same penalty for being partially in the shooting area when the description states that you must be out.

Rule number?

You are either in the shooting area or out of the shooting area.

What rule says partially out or partially in?

Bret -- it'll be really simple when the RO never gives the "Are you Ready" command......

You'll know you're not in the right position, and that the RO won't proceed until you assume correct start position.....

ETA: Careful not to confuse the rules for faulting a line while shooting, with the rules governing the start position. Again -- comes down to the RO's ability to enforce a consistent -- though not necessarily identical -- start for all competitors.

And yes -- the reasons this usually doesn't come up at Level 2 or higher is a better written WSB and consistent stage staffing......

And you guys wonder why toes touching or heels against end up in WSB.

Jay

I agree.

I like anywhere anyhow.

Edited February 2, 2016 by bret

[motosapiens]

WSB

Start position anywhere outside shooting area.

Or sometimes the WSB says

Standing anywhere outside the shooting area.

So since you can get faulted for touching outside the shooting area, you are outside the shooting area.

I see 10.2.1 as indicating the penalty for faulting a line while firing. It doesn't say anything about whether you're considered wholly inside, partially inside, etc, with the exception of defining completely leaving the shooting area in this section:

Shots fired after completely (both feet out and touching the ground) leaving a shooting area will be penalized one penalty per shot until the competitor establishes a presence in a new shooting area with at least one foot on the ground inside the shooting area.

It just defines what penalties you get for faulting the line to various degrees. By your own logic, if I say you must be outside the shooting area, wouldn't you be faulting the line by having one foot inside?

Since you can be faulted for having a foot outside the shooting area, you are not in the shooting area.

In the rules it does not define Standing, Inside, Outside.

If the WSB says inside the shooting area, you have to be completely inside the shooting area.

If WSB says wholly or completely outside of the shooting area you have to be completely outside of it.

WSB that say anywhere outside of shooting area, this is where we can game it. IMO.

You can only "game it" (i.e. cheat) if the RO is unknowledgeable.

[Jake Di Vita]

Gaming is doing whatever you can that is within the rules. Cheating is going outside of the rules. They are not the same thing and shouldn't be referred to as such.

[motosapiens]

Gaming is doing whatever you can that is within the rules. Cheating is going outside of the rules. They are not the same thing and shouldn't be referred to as such.

standing with one foot inside the shooting area when you're supposed to be outside is against the rules. I only used the word 'game' in quote marks because the OP used it.

Edited February 2, 2016 by motosapiens

[bret]

WSB

Start position anywhere outside shooting area.

Or sometimes the WSB says

Standing anywhere outside the shooting area.

So since you can get faulted for touching outside the shooting area, you are outside the shooting area.

I see 10.2.1 as indicating the penalty for faulting a line while firing. It doesn't say anything about whether you're considered wholly inside, partially inside, etc, with the exception of defining completely leaving the shooting area in this section:

Shots fired after completely (both feet out and touching the ground) leaving a shooting area will be penalized one penalty per shot until the competitor establishes a presence in a new shooting area with at least one foot on the ground inside the shooting area.

It just defines what penalties you get for faulting the line to various degrees. By your own logic, if I say you must be outside the shooting area, wouldn't you be faulting the line by having one foot inside?

Since you can be faulted for having a foot outside the shooting area, you are not in the shooting area.

In the rules it does not define Standing, Inside, Outside.

If the WSB says inside the shooting area, you have to be completely inside the shooting area.

If WSB says wholly or completely outside of the shooting area you have to be completely outside of it.

WSB that say anywhere outside of shooting area, this is where we can game it. IMO.

You can only "game it" (i.e. cheat) if the RO is unknowledgeable.

Gaming is not cheating, it is knowing how to use the rules and WSB to your advantage and following the rules.

Cheating is violating the rules.

[bret]

Gaming is doing whatever you can that is within the rules. Cheating is going outside of the rules. They are not the same thing and shouldn't be referred to as such.

standing with one foot inside the shooting area when you're supposed to be outside is against the rules. I only used the word 'game' in quote marks because the OP used it.

Show me which rule it violates.

[Jake Di Vita]

I'm not speaking towards the legality of the action, I'm saying that cheating and gaming aren't the same thing.

[ktm300]

Gaming is doing whatever you can that is within the rules. Cheating is going outside of the rules. They are not the same thing and shouldn't be referred to as such.

I agree.

Gaming = Knowing and applying the rules so you can gain an advantage.

Gaming is part of the fun of the game.

[motosapiens]

I'm not speaking towards the legality of the action, I'm saying that cheating and gaming aren't the same thing.

I have no disagreement with your statement. I didn't intend to say they were the same, but that the OP's idea of 'gaming' is actually not gaming, but just against the rules.

[Jake Di Vita]

I'm not speaking towards the legality of the action, I'm saying that cheating and gaming aren't the same thing.

I have no disagreement with your statement. I didn't intend to say they were the same, but that the OP's idea of 'gaming' is actually not gaming, but just against the rules.

Ok....when you say "game it (ie. cheat)" it sure sounds like you are saying they are the same thing, which is the only reason I said anything.

[motosapiens]

Gaming is doing whatever you can that is within the rules. Cheating is going outside of the rules. They are not the same thing and shouldn't be referred to as such.

standing with one foot inside the shooting area when you're supposed to be outside is against the rules. I only used the word 'game' in quote marks because the OP used it.

Show me which rule it violates.

It's plain english. Partly inside is not the same as outside. If I poke a stick partway into your eye, and point out that one end is still outside of your eye, I don't think you will agree that the stick is outside your eye.

[eern]

Area 5 last year had a stage where I took this just a little further. Standing outside the box heels touching left fault line. I tried the 1 in and 1 out. RO would not start me. I did not press the issue and mainly did it just to start the conversation whether it was legal or not.

[Jake Di Vita]

The nature of our game encourages us to ride the line of competitive advantage as close as possible without stepping over. I remember when I got into USPSA the general consensus among the people I shot with was if it isn't expressly forbidden, you can do it.

Here's another question. Can I legally shoot from within the free fire zone if I have one foot on the top of the fault line with the other in the air so that nothing is touching inside the fault lines? I had this question at the OH state match last year and was informed by the CRO (who has been doing this stuff a long long time and has worked many nationals) that it was totally cool to do so. At first glance, I didn't think it was legal, but it was explained to me that by the definition I am not outside of the free fire zone. Gaming? Hell yes. Cheating? No.

Edited February 2, 2016 by Jake Di Vita

[ktm300]

10.2.1 is about defining a penalty not about the definition of a start position.

Fault Line .........................A physical ground reference line in a course of fire which defines the limit(s) of the shooting area.

If the WSB says "anywhere outside the shooting area" you need to be somewhere outside the shooting area, not partially outside and partially inside.

If the WSB said "anywhere inside the shooting area" could you stand with one foot outside the shooting area? (nope)

[JAFO]

Since you can be faulted for having a foot outside the shooting area, you are not in the shooting area.

I would contend that when you say this, you are making an interpretation. Receiving a penalty under 10.2.1 simply means you faulted (i.e., went over) the line.

If the WSB says inside the shooting area, you have to be completely inside the shooting area.

If WSB says wholly or completely outside of the shooting area you have to be completely outside of it.

WSB that say anywhere outside of shooting area, this is where we can game it. IMO.

You're applying a double standard here. Saying that if it says "inside the shooting area" you must be wholly inside, but if it says "outside the shooting area" you don't have to be.

Edited February 2, 2016 by JAFO

[motosapiens]

Here's another question. Can I legally shoot from within the free fire zone if I have one foot on the top of the fault line with the other in the air so that nothing is touching inside the fault lines? I had this question at the OH state match last year and was expressly informed by the CRO (who has been doing this stuff a long long time and has worked many nationals) that it was totally cool to do so. At first glance, I didn't think it was legal, but it was explained to me that by the definition I am not outside of the free fire zone. Gaming? Hell yes. Cheating? No.

yep. that one is easy. fault lines are inside the shooting area. Similar situation came up at columbia cascade section last year, where you pretty much had to stand on the fault lines to lean far enough over to get to a target.

Here's a trickier one..... what if you leave the ground from inside the fault lines, and land outside.... Do you have to actually be touching inside, or can you keep shooting with both feet in the air until you touch outside? All the times I've shot while falling out of a box I've still had one foot on the ground for more stability, but I think it would still be ok to shoot if that foot came up, until I touch something outside the shooting area.

[Sarge]

The nature of our game encourages us to ride the line of competitive advantage as close as possible without stepping over. I remember when I got into USPSA the general consensus among the people I shot with was if it isn't expressly forbidden, you can do it.

Here's another question. Can I legally shoot from within the free fire zone if I have one foot on the top of the fault line with the other in the air so that nothing is touching inside the fault lines? I had this question at the OH state match last year and was informed by the CRO (who has been doing this stuff a long long time and has worked many nationals) that it was totally cool to do so. At first glance, I didn't think it was legal, but it was explained to me that by the definition I am not outside of the free fire zone. Gaming? Hell yes. Cheating? No.

Any RO should have known that was legal.

[Sarge]

Here's another question. Can I legally shoot from within the free fire zone if I have one foot on the top of the fault line with the other in the air so that nothing is touching inside the fault lines? I had this question at the OH state match last year and was expressly informed by the CRO (who has been doing this stuff a long long time and has worked many nationals) that it was totally cool to do so. At first glance, I didn't think it was legal, but it was explained to me that by the definition I am not outside of the free fire zone. Gaming? Hell yes. Cheating? No.

yep. that one is easy. fault lines are inside the shooting area. Similar situation came up at columbia cascade section last year, where you pretty much had to stand on the fault lines to lean far enough over to get to a target.

Here's a trickier one..... what if you leave the ground from inside the fault lines, and land outside.... Do you have to actually be touching inside, or can you keep shooting with both feet in the air until you touch outside? All the times I've shot while falling out of a box I've still had one foot on the ground for more stability, but I think it would still be ok to shoot if that foot came up, until I touch something outside the shooting area.

That's easy too. Of course you can. You're not faulting until you touch something

[ChuckS]

Here's another question. Can I legally shoot from within the free fire zone if I have one foot on the top of the fault line with the other in the air so that nothing is touching inside the fault lines? I had this question at the OH state match last year and was expressly informed by the CRO (who has been doing this stuff a long long time and has worked many nationals) that it was totally cool to do so. At first glance, I didn't think it was legal, but it was explained to me that by the definition I am not outside of the free fire zone. Gaming? Hell yes. Cheating? No.

yep. that one is easy. fault lines are inside the shooting area. Similar situation came up at columbia cascade section last year, where you pretty much had to stand on the fault lines to lean far enough over to get to a target.

Here's a trickier one..... what if you leave the ground from inside the fault lines, and land outside.... Do you have to actually be touching inside, or can you keep shooting with both feet in the air until you touch outside? All the times I've shot while falling out of a box I've still had one foot on the ground for more stability, but I think it would still be ok to shoot if that foot came up, until I touch something outside the shooting area.

That's easy too. Of course you can. You're not faulting until you touch something

I have done that multiple times. A few of them were intentional.

[JAFO]

I have done that multiple times. A few of them were intentional.

[Jake Di Vita]

Here's another question. Can I legally shoot from within the free fire zone if I have one foot on the top of the fault line with the other in the air so that nothing is touching inside the fault lines? I had this question at the OH state match last year and was expressly informed by the CRO (who has been doing this stuff a long long time and has worked many nationals) that it was totally cool to do so. At first glance, I didn't think it was legal, but it was explained to me that by the definition I am not outside of the free fire zone. Gaming? Hell yes. Cheating? No.

yep. that one is easy. fault lines are inside the shooting area. Similar situation came up at columbia cascade section last year, where you pretty much had to stand on the fault lines to lean far enough over to get to a target.

Here's a trickier one..... what if you leave the ground from inside the fault lines, and land outside.... Do you have to actually be touching inside, or can you keep shooting with both feet in the air until you touch outside? All the times I've shot while falling out of a box I've still had one foot on the ground for more stability, but I think it would still be ok to shoot if that foot came up, until I touch something outside the shooting area.

That's pretty much the same situation I was talking about.

The nature of our game encourages us to ride the line of competitive advantage as close as possible without stepping over. I remember when I got into USPSA the general consensus among the people I shot with was if it isn't expressly forbidden, you can do it.

Here's another question. Can I legally shoot from within the free fire zone if I have one foot on the top of the fault line with the other in the air so that nothing is touching inside the fault lines? I had this question at the OH state match last year and was informed by the CRO (who has been doing this stuff a long long time and has worked many nationals) that it was totally cool to do so. At first glance, I didn't think it was legal, but it was explained to me that by the definition I am not outside of the free fire zone. Gaming? Hell yes. Cheating? No.

Any RO should have known that was legal.

? He did. I don't know what you're trying to get at.

It's just a good example of the difference between gaming and cheating.

[Gary Stevens]

Also another example of a poorly written WSB.

[motosapiens]

Here's another question. Can I legally shoot from within the free fire zone if I have one foot on the top of the fault line with the other in the air so that nothing is touching inside the fault lines? I had this question at the OH state match last year and was expressly informed by the CRO (who has been doing this stuff a long long time and has worked many nationals) that it was totally cool to do so. At first glance, I didn't think it was legal, but it was explained to me that by the definition I am not outside of the free fire zone. Gaming? Hell yes. Cheating? No.

yep. that one is easy. fault lines are inside the shooting area. Similar situation came up at columbia cascade section last year, where you pretty much had to stand on the fault lines to lean far enough over to get to a target.

Here's a trickier one..... what if you leave the ground from inside the fault lines, and land outside.... Do you have to actually be touching inside, or can you keep shooting with both feet in the air until you touch outside? All the times I've shot while falling out of a box I've still had one foot on the ground for more stability, but I think it would still be ok to shoot if that foot came up, until I touch something outside the shooting area.

That's easy too. Of course you can. You're not faulting until you touch something

Ok, what about if you are outside the shooting area and jump in.... do you have to touch something inside before you can start shooting?

[motosapiens]

Here's another question. Can I legally shoot from within the free fire zone if I have one foot on the top of the fault line with the other in the air so that nothing is touching inside the fault lines? I had this question at the OH state match last year and was expressly informed by the CRO (who has been doing this stuff a long long time and has worked many nationals) that it was totally cool to do so. At first glance, I didn't think it was legal, but it was explained to me that by the definition I am not outside of the free fire zone. Gaming? Hell yes. Cheating? No.

yep. that one is easy. fault lines are inside the shooting area. Similar situation came up at columbia cascade section last year, where you pretty much had to stand on the fault lines to lean far enough over to get to a target.

Here's a trickier one..... what if you leave the ground from inside the fault lines, and land outside.... Do you have to actually be touching inside, or can you keep shooting with both feet in the air until you touch outside? All the times I've shot while falling out of a box I've still had one foot on the ground for more stability, but I think it would still be ok to shoot if that foot came up, until I touch something outside the shooting area.

That's pretty much the same situation I was talking about.

IMHO it's different, because the fault lines are defined to be inside the shooting area, so if you are touching them, you are touching inside the shooting area. If you are in the air, you are NOT touching inside the shooting area.