Standing outside the shooting area

[motosapiens]

I'm a noob so feel free to ignore this:

Perhaps it would be better stated FULLY out or FULLY in the shooting box.

If not fully out to start, you get the penalty, if your not fully in when shooting you get the penalty.

Wondering if there is a rule that says both feet must be on the ground...

Actually, if not fully out to start, you don't get to start. There are no penalties for being in the wrong position at the start, the RO just won't give you the start beep until you are in the right position.

The default start position does imho require both feet to be on the ground, however if the wsb says 'standing outside the shooting area' and nothing more, I don't see any reason that you couldn't start with 1 foot in the air. I think it would be stupid to do so, but I would probably start you.

[bret]

Hey Bret -- serious suggestion -- why not chat with the RMI who taught your RO class, and ask him if your interpretation is correct.......

Most likely he'll tell you that it's not -- but that the stage description in question could have been more cleanly drafted......

or submit question to the NROI on the USPSA website. Then you have a 100% definitive answer.

I asked DNROI, if the WSB says start outside the shooting area, if you have a foot touching outside the shooting area, you are outside of the shooting area and it complies with the WSB and the USPSA rules.

[High Lord Gomer]

Thanks, Bret!

[motosapiens]

Good to know. Troy and the other RMI's are only human, so if they have a tribal tradition of erroneously interpreting plain english, I can live with it as long as it's consistent. I will remember to fix the wsb's before the match starts to avoid the problems.

[teros135]

Is that an actual NROI ruling, or is it just a conversation? You know how it is - everybody has opinions, but the written one is the one that we rely on.

[motosapiens]

Is that an actual NROI ruling, or is it just a conversation? You know how it is - everybody has opinions, but the written one is the one that we rely on.

either way there will be other people that keep the legend alive and argue about it at matches. Best to just nip it in the bud with 1 or 2 extra words in the wsb and not give johnny cochran and bill clinton's lawyers a running start.

[bret]

Is that an actual NROI ruling, or is it just a conversation? You know how it is - everybody has opinions, but the written one is the one that we rely on.

I sent an Email to DNROI, Troy answered it, not sure if that is official enough for you but it is for me.

You can ask him whether or not it's an official ruling if you want to.

[seadog_99]

I like to game as much as the next guy but if I were the RO when you tried this I wouldn't start you if you had a foot IN the shooting area.

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Edited April 19, 2016 by seadog_99

[bret]

I like to game as much as the next guy but if I were the RO when you tried this I wouldn't start you if you had a foot IN the shooting area.

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A shooter following the rules and WSB, what is the reason for not starting the shooter?

[motosapiens]

I like to game as much as the next guy but if I were the RO when you tried this I wouldn't start you if you had a foot IN the shooting area.

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A shooter following an erroneous interpretation unsupported by the rules and WSB, what is the reason for not starting the shooter?

fixed, just like I would fix the wsb, so that people who are wrong would waste less of our time at the match.

[seadog_99]

That's not how I interpret the rules. RM says start him I'll do it.

Realistically in a level 1 match I'd just bust his balls for a while. Starting by explaining that all of the guys that are going to beat him at this match will be standing with both feet outside of the shooting area. If he can take the bs I'll throw his way and not drop the ball then he/she has serious game.

Like I said, I LOVE to game stages but I see too many people working harder to game something that doesn't really help than to build a valid and often safer game plan in search of consistency. Of course this all may not apply in this case.

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[seadog_99]

This of course is in lieu of an NROI ruling.

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[bret]

I like to game as much as the next guy but if I were the RO when you tried this I wouldn't start you if you had a foot IN the shooting area.

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A shooter following an erroneous interpretation unsupported by the rules and WSB, what is the reason for not starting the shooter?

fixed, just like I would fix the wsb, so that people who are wrong would waste less of our time at the match.

DNROI is wrong on his interpretation of the rules?

[seadog_99]

Was there a ruling? So far all I've heard is that someone's cousin's neighbor's brother lives in the same state as Troy and said he asked him?

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[bret]

Was there a ruling? So far all I've heard is that someone's cousin's neighbor's brother lives in the same state as Troy and said he asked him?

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I sent DNROI an Email, if you don't believe what he said, send DNROI an email yourself.

What rule says standing partially in a shooting area is inside a shooting area?

If you have a foot touching outside the shooting area you get a foot fault for being outside the shooting area, you can't be outside the shooting area in one instance yet inside in another.

[seadog_99]

You only get a foot fault if the wsb says targets must be engaged from within the shooting area (which would mean no part of you touching outside including walls or props that are not inside of or attached to the fault lines) and you don't comply. Similarly, if the wsb says to start outside of the shooting area but any part of you is touching inside of the shooting area, including walls or props that are inside of or attached to the fault lines, then you aren't outside.

Good stage design eliminates this whole issue anyway. Either have a specific spot to start or let shooters start where they want. 99.99% of the time no advantage is gleaned from starting half-in.

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Edited April 19, 2016 by seadog_99

[motosapiens]

I like to game as much as the next guy but if I were the RO when you tried this I wouldn't start you if you had a foot IN the shooting area.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

A shooter following an erroneous interpretation unsupported by the rules and WSB, what is the reason for not starting the shooter?

fixed, just like I would fix the wsb, so that people who are wrong would waste less of our time at the match.

DNROI is wrong on his interpretation of the rules?

If that is his interpretation of the rules, yes, and also wrong on his interpretation of the english language. But that doesn't bother me, he's human, and he's very consistent. As long as everyone knows about it and we're consistent, it's all good.

The problem comes when everyone else is told the right way to do it, then someone else who doesn't understand english and has a printed out email from troy wants to do it wrong. You either have to explain english to him and make him do it right, let all the other shooters reshoot, or throw out the stage.

Edited April 19, 2016 by motosapiens

[motosapiens]

What rule says standing partially in a shooting area is inside a shooting area?

If you have a foot touching outside the shooting area you get a foot fault for being outside the shooting area, you can't be outside the shooting area in one instance yet inside in another.

No rule says that standing partially in a shooting area is either inside *or* outside a shooting area. that's just english. Inside and outside have specific meanings, neither of which is 'partly inside and partly outside'.

A foot fault is not the same as being outside the shooting area, and in fact the rule for foot faults also includes a separate clause ( with a mandatory per shot penalty) for actually being outside the shooting area, rather than just faulting (being partly in and partly out).

You are confusing the concept of faulting with the concept of being outside the shooting area. they are two different things, which is why they are treated differently in the rules (mandatory per-shot penalty vs discretionary per-shot penalty based on whether the fault gave a competitive advantage).

Nonetheless you sound like an interesting and motivated shooter, and I look forward to meeting you in person someday at a big match and talking shooting.

Edited April 19, 2016 by motosapiens

[Stlhead]

If the RO has the ability to decide what is and what is not the proper start position is there a rule that requires him or her to force all of the competitors to start in the same position or is the RO allowed to force the shooter to start in whatever position he or she chooses based on the RO's feelings at the time? If the RO is the arbiter of the start position then can they make people they don't like start in the parking lot? It seems to me that the WSB should say where the start position is and the RO should enforce it. If there is a controversy over the instructions on the WSB then a ruling should be required from higher match official(s).

[motosapiens]

It has to be the same for everyone. When wording is ambiguous and there are not dedicated stage RO's, that becomes challenging.

Having worked a number of nationals and area matches, I have found that higher match officials don't really care that much if the RO interprets it a certain way, as long as it is consistent. It's one of the things that a stage crew discusses in detail when proofing their stage, and normally the WSB is edited to suit the agreement between the CRO and RM.

In a local match with RO's embedded in the squad, we clarify with the stage designer and/or previous squads if there are questions about an unclear wsb. Even if I don't personally agree with someone else's interpretation, if they already shot the stage, we roll with it. Not that big a deal anyway. My testing shows no difference in draw to first shot whether I stand stock still, lift one leg, or have to step both feet over a fault line. Might be different for people that don't practice.

Edited April 19, 2016 by motosapiens

[Stlhead]

Where in the rules does it say it has to be the same for everyone? You guys are arguing over the definition of "Outside" when it looks to me like there are far more entertaining points to argue.

[Gary Stevens]

If I am assigned to a stage once I determine that the WSB requires a particular start position when I start that first shooter I have established how each shooter will start. If I am wrong, then I will be consistent through the event. I honestly don't understand the big hubbub about a start position. Shooting is freestyle, not starting.

[pjb45]

4.6.1 Range equipment must present the challenge fairly and equitably to competitors.

To me, this infers that consistency is a theme: "fairly and equitably to all competitors." If I let one person do it one way and another a different, I could be open to allow a competitive advantage that is capricious and arbitrary and thus not fair and equitable.

Boxes, fault lines barriers, etc. are all range equipment to me. Like Yoda Gary says, "I will be consistent through the event."

[Gary Stevens]

To clarify a bit, if the WSB is clear and concise then obviously there is no problem. However, if it is ambiguous then I'll pass judgement on what it means.

On the bright side, by the time someone belly aches about it, and the RM responds, chances are I will have ran too many shooters to re-shoot, and it will be determined I was correct after all .

[FTDMFR]

You are either outside the shooting area or you aren't, it can't be both.

There's a third option: you can be neither. Edited April 19, 2016 by FTDMFR