Carry optics with iron sight?

[BritinUSA]

We've not had professional photographer in a long time. I've been photographing Nationals since 2009, I usually do the Single-Stack, Revolver, Production and the back to back Nationals. I did not do the Open and Limited event last year due to the high cost of travel/hotels for Florida. I don't get reimbursed for my costs, I only get paid for the articles and photos that Front Sight publishes.

I've been concerned about the return on investment for our sponsors for a long time. Which is one of the reasons that I don't charge sponsors or shooters for any of the photographs that I take if they wish to use them. My photos have been in various shooting magazines, catalogs, and lots of Facebook pages.

I hope to be at SS, Revolver and Production Nationals is year too. I could also cover the CO match (to a limited degree) but only if they squadded me with some of the top shooters as I'd really like to shoot that match.

[Gooldylocks]

Kevin, I think you're in favor of PCC, but obviously hate CO. What do you see as the difference? New division, people having fun shooting guns, happy, happy, happy.

I just can't get behind CO when we already have open division. I have always seen it that way. No it doesn't hurt me. I have been called a hater from day one yet I get chastised for joking and using WO which I copied by the way. All that does is reenergize my contempt for it. It just doesn't make sense to me when guys say open is too expensive yet I can buy 2 RTS2 for what some guys are spending on an optic to put on a $500 gun.

I bought a P320 for $480, an optic mount for $42, Burris FastFire 3 for $212 delivered, Bladetech DOH for $62 and 3 additional mags for $108 delivered. I already had mag holders that fit and the belt. For $904 I'm completely set to compete in CO.

That's great but SOME are spending upwards of what, $700 for the latest and greatest optic?

But, but.... people are putting RMR's on open guns too! Just because some people decide they want the latest and greatest dot isn't a justification that it is the same cost for everyone.

Cause if you have a super fancy open gun (like your Cheely) or a super fancy CO gun, with the most expensive sight, your gun still costs about 3k more.

You can't win the cost argument, it's cheaper.

[Sarge]

Sure it's cheaper. But not production division cheaper

[Sarge]

DT

Edited January 26, 2016 by Sarge

[zhunter]

Kevin, I think you're in favor of PCC, but obviously hate CO. What do you see as the difference? New division, people having fun shooting guns, happy, happy, happy.

I just can't get behind CO when we already have open division. I have always seen it that way. No it doesn't hurt me. I have been called a hater from day one yet I get chastised for joking and using WO which I copied by the way. All that does is reenergize my contempt for it. It just doesn't make sense to me when guys say open is too expensive yet I can buy 2 RTS2 for what some guys are spending on an optic to put on a $500 gun.

I bought a P320 for $480, an optic mount for $42, Burris FastFire 3 for $212 delivered, Bladetech DOH for $62 and 3 additional mags for $108 delivered. I already had mag holders that fit and the belt. For $904 I'm completely set to compete in CO.

That's great but SOME are spending upwards of what, $700 for the latest and greatest optic?

But, but.... people are putting RMR's on open guns too! Just because some people decide they want the latest and greatest dot isn't a justification that it is the same cost for everyone.

Cause if you have a super fancy open gun (like your Cheely) or a super fancy CO gun, with the most expensive sight, your gun still costs about 3k more.

You can't win the cost argument, it's cheaper.

My CO setup:

CZ P-09 $450.00

Springer dovetail mount $45.00

Doctor Sight $450

Total $945.00

Dude, either your math sux or you are just making stuff up.

[BritinUSA]

Sure it's cheaper. But not production division cheaper

Obviously the same gun in Production and CO will be more expensive in the latter division, but that cost differential will be limited to the cost of the scope and the associated mounting solution. The guns that already cater to this division have removable plates so the cost of mounting is eliminated, in those cases it will just come down to the dot. These vary considerably in price, as the technology and sales improve I suspect that the cost of the sights will drop over time; With the new SIG P329 RX possibly having a price point below $900 bucks it should be possible to get into this division for less than $1000.

You can spend less in Production but you can also spend a lot more. A decent Open gun and magazines will cost about 3-4 times that amount.

[bret]

We've not had professional photographer in a long time. I've been photographing Nationals since 2009, I usually do the Single-Stack, Revolver, Production and the back to back Nationals. I did not do the Open and Limited event last year due to the high cost of travel/hotels for Florida. I don't get reimbursed for my costs, I only get paid for the articles and photos that Front Sight publishes.

I've been concerned about the return on investment for our sponsors for a long time. Which is one of the reasons that I don't charge sponsors or shooters for any of the photographs that I take if they wish to use them. My photos have been in various shooting magazines, catalogs, and lots of Facebook pages.

I hope to be at SS, Revolver and Production Nationals is year too. I could also cover the CO match (to a limited degree) but only if they squadded me with some of the top shooters as I'd really like to shoot that match.

I shot Nationals in Limited,after I was finished I shot pictures,as I did at IPSC and other matches, but, working as an R.O. at IPSC it made it hard to get pictures of everything, I got dome good ones if people on the squad I worked and some of the super squad when we were waiting on the squad that was slow ahead of us.

I gave the pictures to the shooters so they could use them, all I asked for was photo credit.

I shoot pictures of a lot of matches then give them to people that run the match,but they aren't getting used much if at all.

I think it's because they gor thru fu r free and see little value in them.

It's getting to the point where it's not worth my time dragging out my camera gear anymore, I use mostly a 1D x or a 5D MKIII.

I took some pictures at nationals that shooters used.

It seems to me match directors don't care about pictures or its an after thought.

[BritinUSA]

The MD typically sees the matches a competition and nothing more, but it's also a marketing opportunity and one that is sadly wasted each and every year. Stages should be set up so that video and still photographs are possible, solid walls make the job of covering the event very difficult, (I've been saying this for years...)

Our stages at Nationals should look like those they have at a World Shoot. I want people who did not attend to watch the videos, see the photos and kick themselves because they weren't there. Our Nationals are no better than most area matches so something is breaking somewhere.

We can't even get all the top women onto a single squad which means covering that part of the competition is nigh impossible.

Placement of sponsor banners should be determined by the media team so they get the maximum exposure on match videos and photos. At the Production Nationls last year I was sending tweets about each stage and who sponsored that stage along with links to that company/business.

[Gooldylocks]

Kevin, I think you're in favor of PCC, but obviously hate CO. What do you see as the difference? New division, people having fun shooting guns, happy, happy, happy.

I just can't get behind CO when we already have open division. I have always seen it that way. No it doesn't hurt me. I have been called a hater from day one yet I get chastised for joking and using WO which I copied by the way. All that does is reenergize my contempt for it. It just doesn't make sense to me when guys say open is too expensive yet I can buy 2 RTS2 for what some guys are spending on an optic to put on a $500 gun.

I bought a P320 for $480, an optic mount for $42, Burris FastFire 3 for $212 delivered, Bladetech DOH for $62 and 3 additional mags for $108 delivered. I already had mag holders that fit and the belt. For $904 I'm completely set to compete in CO.

That's great but SOME are spending upwards of what, $700 for the latest and greatest optic?

But, but.... people are putting RMR's on open guns too! Just because some people decide they want the latest and greatest dot isn't a justification that it is the same cost for everyone.

Cause if you have a super fancy open gun (like your Cheely) or a super fancy CO gun, with the most expensive sight, your gun still costs about 3k more.

You can't win the cost argument, it's cheaper.

My CO setup:

CZ P-09 $450.00

Springer dovetail mount $45.00

Doctor Sight $450

Total $945.00

Dude, either your math sux or you are just making stuff up.

Dude, either your math sux or you don't understand what I'm saying. 4395-945 = 3450.

Open = 3450 dollars more expensive. Reading comprehension is difficult when you are clouded with anger.

[zhunter]

Speed reading, sorry if I misunderstood you

[Sarge]

Put a few hundred more in it and shoot open then. I admit $945 is cheap. Cheap enough to go full open quite cheaply.

[Gooldylocks]

Speed reading, sorry if I misunderstood you

Forgiven. We are on the same side, I think CO looks like a ton of fun, a bunch of people have been shooting it locally.

[jester121]

I'll be interested to see how tightly the Production/CO list will be scrutinized when people show up with a carry-optics-like gun they just bought, without realizing it's a new SKU that isn't on the Production approved list yet.

At a Nationals level match, you'd hope everyone would double check this sort of thing ahead of time, but if the manufacturers are as excited about slide mounted optic plastic guns as some people say, it might get a bit hairy.

[teros135]

At LII and above (sectionals, Nats) there should be a clear count of guns with and without optics. The ones with optics are actually shooting "CO", and that would give us a clearer idea of how popular that genre actually is.

On a slight tangent, one can use "lesser" equipment than a Division allows, but can you keep up? Well, like others, I've classified in various divisions with "lesser" equipment, such as C class in Open with a Production gun (Minor ammo) and 10-round mags (C was my Production classification level at that time, and my C in Open was about 8% lower). And I'm a Super Senior, with vision requiring extra correction to use iron sights. It's not the arrow, so much, although optics and compensators do seem to help.

[Nik Habicht]

Put a few hundred more in it and shoot open then. I admit $945 is cheap. Cheap enough to go full open quite cheaply.

Really? Can I buy factory ammo for open major as cheaply as I can for open minor? Or do I need to take up reloading? I'm pretty sure I've spent more money on stuff to feed the guns than i have spent for the guns themselves......

Come to think of it, I've never dropped anywhere near $500 for a set of mags for the gun either....

I've got an extra $120 sunk into mags for Production, over and beyond what came with my gun. That gives me 8 ten round mags. Why 8 for Production? Because Bianchi is great accuracy practice, and eight mags will let me get through any Bianchi stage.....

[bmiller]

I'm in favor of three back to back Nationals, I've posted this before....

Classic Nationals : Single Stack & Revolver

Factory Nationls : Production & Carry Optics

Custom Nationals : Open & Limited / L10

Please incorporate the pistol carbine nationals into this list. Edited January 28, 2016 by bmiller

[Garmil]

If an iron sighted gun wins co nationals. Would it make sense to drop co and allow optics in to production? If there is no advantage why add the new division?

[JAFO]

Just because one of the top-level shooters in the country might be able to win without the dot, that doesn't mean it's not an advantage. I certainly don't want to have to run against dots with irons in Production.

[teros135]

I'm in favor of three back to back Nationals, I've posted this before....

Classic Nationals : Single Stack & Revolver

Factory Nationls : Production & Carry Optics

Custom Nationals : Open & Limited / L10

Please incorporate the pistol carbine nationals into this list.

Yes ... for Multigun nationals.

[Gooldylocks]

If an iron sighted gun wins co nationals. Would it make sense to drop co and allow optics in to production? If there is no advantage why add the new division?

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say the chance of that is essentially zero. Dots are way, WAY faster than irons. Unless every single member of the super squad shoots irons, my bet is on a dot.

[ac4wordplay]

If an iron sighted gun wins co nationals. Would it make sense to drop co and allow optics in to production? If there is no advantage why add the new division?

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say the chance of that is essentially zero. Dots are way, WAY faster than irons. Unless every single member of the super squad shoots irons, my bet is on a dot.

I'd be reluctant to bet against Eric G (with Production gear) in CO Nationals.

But even if he wins, that doesn't prove that having an optic is no advantage.

[Gooldylocks]

If an iron sighted gun wins co nationals. Would it make sense to drop co and allow optics in to production? If there is no advantage why add the new division?

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say the chance of that is essentially zero. Dots are way, WAY faster than irons. Unless every single member of the super squad shoots irons, my bet is on a dot.

I'd be reluctant to bet against Eric G (with Production gear) in CO Nationals.

But even if he wins, that doesn't prove that having an optic is no advantage.

Eric likes to win, and he can't shoot his S2 so he would have to shoot something different (that he isn't as used to obviously).

Don't you suppose someone that likes to win and is already very very good at shooting a dot gun, would shoot a dot?

::ETA:: but if anyone would be able to win without a dot, I would bet on him, we agree there.

Edited January 28, 2016 by Gooldylocks

[Nimitz]

That is why they lobbied for the new division.

And some members did too. I lobbied for it because I saw the potential for new members and a cheaper option for those with bad vision than a $4K Open gun. I backed up that lobbying by buying and shooting a gun that matched my proposal, I shot it from mid 2014 including A3 and part of a Nationals.

I doubt that S&W made the M&P Core just for USPSA, as there was no division for it back then. I suspect they made it because they saw a potential market that would allow them a significant return on their investment. The marketing divisions of these gun manufacturers probably know more about the firearms market than anyone working for USPSA. They would not create these guns if there was no market for them, and if the is a market for those guns then shouldn't USPSA get in on the ground floor of it?

By providing a place for these guns to be competitive, USPSA can help to promote those products and also seek more sponsorship opportunities from a wider variety of gun companies.

This similar to what happens in the world of multi-billion dollar aerospace companies & the DoD.. They get a contract from the gov't to build something and then some time later the marketing gurus in the company start looking for commercial markets to sell derivatives of these products they sold to the fed gov't to increase their ROI ..... There was no conspiracy to get USPSA to adopt a new division .... Just smart business from big companies trying to increase profits ... God bless America ...

[sperman]

If an iron sighted gun wins co nationals. Would it make sense to drop co and allow optics in to production? If there is no advantage why add the new division?

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say the chance of that is essentially zero. Dots are way, WAY faster than irons. Unless every single member of the super squad shoots irons, my bet is on a dot.

I'm pretty sure Vogel or Sevigny won the "Open" portion of the Pro-Am with iron sights a few years ago. Yes, it is a different game, but not that different.

[alma]

Double

Edited January 28, 2016 by alma