Carry optics sub forum

[3djedi]

Seems like this division was made just for glock and M&P. The m&p has been out a couple years so it must of been made to appease glock and the new glock mos.

[MikeRush]

You can purchase, say, a 17C or one of the ported CORE guns and then install a barrel that only has holes at the front and back.

[3djedi]

I was wanting to get that M&P pro core performance center with the porting. I guess I'm glad I didn't buy it. Oh, could you buy this with the slide and barrel porting and replace the barrel with a non-ported one(such as a KKM in same caliber)? Would that be legal for this division?

Edited July 30, 2015 by 3djedi

[3djedi]

You can purchase, say, a 17C or one of the ported CORE guns and then install a barrel that only has holes at the front and back.

You mean bullet entry and bullet exit holes? lol

[gng4life]

Seems like this division was made just for glock and M&P. The m&p has been out a couple years so it must of been made to appease glock and the new glock mos.

But that is just a very narrow market, creating a whole division for just two pistols?

Sent from the range

[alma]

I was wanting to get that M&P pro core performance center with the porting. I guess I'm glad I didn't buy it. Oh, could you buy this with the slide and barrel porting and replace the barrel with a non-ported one(such as a KKM in same caliber)? Would that be legal for this division?

Those are legal in production provided the barrel ported barrel is replaced and this rule says if it's production legal then you should be good to go for CO.

"Ported models are allowed providing that the barrel is non-ported and the other requirements are met."

[2011BLDR]

When I started shooting this sport in 1990 we were the cutting edge of innovation and pushing things to the limit, this CO rule set is just another example of how we (USPSA) are behind.

This class of pistol is out there in use already, 95% of them will not pass CO rules as written because they are not entry level pistol they are a high-end custom carry gun. They are an evolution of our warfighters having optics on their weapons for the last 20 years and having been engaged in active combat for the last 14 years. In that process, they learned the following points:

· Tritium vials in pistol sights will light you up like an IR illuminator while holstered to anyone else on NVG’s

· Tritium vials in pistol sights will bloom your NVG’s if you try to use them to shoot

· Plain Irion sights are useless while warring NVG’s

· LAM’s (Laser Aiming Modules) for pistols are large, heavy and power hungry

· Aiming a pistol with a LAM is extremely difficult, shooter induced error on target is 100 times worse than with a long gun

The MRDS’s addressed all of the above points:

· Reticle output is compatible with NVG’s

· Power consumption on MRDS’s is low

· Aiming a pistol with a MRDS on NVG’s is 100 times better than with a LAM.

These lessons have crossed over to the “Tactical world” now, but we as USPSA chose not to study and include this class of pistol, we simply take or most restrictive rule set and allow a MRDS to be added. Lets add that we are only doing a 4 month “provisional” period also, I think limited was 2 year “provisional” division? ( I am 50’s now so the memory is fading a bit). This is either a sign that our leadership is FUBAR or has set this up as a garneted FAIL.

The big mistakes in this rule set are:

· Stippling / texturing is too restrictive, 90%(+/-) of the guns already in use have been modified with forward index points or under the trigger guard, things that are outside the allowed Production areas

· External machining to restrictive, 80% (+/-) of the guns already in use have been modified with forward / top cocking serrations and / or slide lightening

· External Trigger modifications to restrictive, 50% (+/-) of the guns already in use have been modified with aftermarket triggers

· 10 round limit in a 140MM magazine??? Just plain stupid

I liked most of what was presented in the “Tactical Division” thread, but we should also consider what IMA-SMM3G has proposed for the “Stealth Division” in regards to the pistol also. Their box size makes you chose a 140MM mag and no optic or an optic with a standard mag.

I carry M&P’s, I don’t have MRDS’s on them because:

· I had them before the CORE came out

· I can still see iron sights

· DOD didn’t let me keep my NVG’s when I retired

I currently only shoot open and limited, I would be interested in shooting this division the issue is my guns are stippled outside of the production guidelines. I would have to buy a CORE and some Mag pouches (Have spare MRDS’s) and do the trigger work.

If we have an honest look at our divisions they are either a stagnant formula (Open, Limited) , a rules stagnant formula ( SS, Production) or a place to hide( L10, revolver).

I remember Open and Limited when innovation and technology was a factor, P9 based guns, 2011 guns, Caspian high caps, Para ords, Glock 24’s… Now it is a perfected 2011 formula.

[BritinUSA]

Seems like this division was made just for glock and M&P. The m&p has been out a couple years so it must of been made to appease glock and the new glock mos.

I don't think so. Its for any semi-automatic on the Production gun list that (with a dot and an empty magazine) weighs in at 35oz or less. I've been using an XDM 5.25 for this.

[2011BLDR]

I was wanting to get that M&P pro core performance center with the porting. I guess I'm glad I didn't buy it. Oh, could you buy this with the slide and barrel porting and replace the barrel with a non-ported one(such as a KKM in same caliber)? Would that be legal for this division?

Those are legal in production provided the barrel ported barrel is replaced and this rule says if it's production legal then you should be good to go for CO.

"Ported models are allowed providing that the barrel is non-ported and the other requirements are met."

I think we need that one in writing, The PC CORE's have an external trigger overtravel stop that production CORE's dont.

[BritinUSA]

I think we need that one in writing, The PC CORE's have an external trigger overtravel stop that production CORE's dont.

Springfield Armory Custom shop makes an XDM 5.25 with a PRP trigger installed (that has a trigger stop), that makes this trigger an allowed modification under PO rules, CO rules are the same in this reqard, just read the Appendix that was just published.

Item 21.6 in part reads..

Any other components which are externally visible may ONLY be replaced with OFM parts which are offered on the specific model of gun or another approved gun from the same manufacturer except as specifically clarified below. Examples of external components which may only be replaced with OFM parts include (but are not limited to): magazine releases, slide stops, thumb safeties and triggers.

[ron169]

I was wanting to get that M&P pro core performance center with the porting. I guess I'm glad I didn't buy it. Oh, could you buy this with the slide and barrel porting and replace the barrel with a non-ported one(such as a KKM in same caliber)? Would that be legal for this division?

Those are legal in production provided the barrel ported barrel is replaced and this rule says if it's production legal then you should be good to go for CO.

"Ported models are allowed providing that the barrel is non-ported and the other requirements are met."

I think we need that one in writing, The PC CORE's have an external trigger overtravel stop that production CORE's dont.

Might want to email dnroi@uspsa.org the m&m&p pro core is not on the approved list. Just like the 34 MOS isn't on the list... Yet

[PatJones]

or a place to hide( L10, revolver).

Please stop lumping Revo with L10. It only has low participation numbers because you and your friends are too soft to come shoot a revolver.

[2011BLDR]

or a place to hide( L10, revolver).

Please stop lumping Revo with L10. It only has low participation numbers because you and your friends are too soft to come shoot a revolver.

I see the majority of stages being designed as 10 round neutral in the last few years.. This is a direct result of the increase in production popularity, last area 2 SS Shooters shot minor to avoid the 8 round major standing reloads and planing nightmares.. So no I don't understand the desire to shoot a 6/8 shot revolver in this sport it seems to be a lot of self inflicted pain, the equipment limitations don't fit in with the current status of stage design, if you enjoy that good...i never said we should drop any divisions,the polnt was intended to highlight that we currently have no division that has any room for innovation or experimentation.... My open guns I built in 1998 are still competitive today, not as stilish as the new guns but performance is the same. Same in limited the last big equipment jump was the 6" gun..L10 is a 2011 short loded mags..production is EAA/CZ so those platforms that we all beat to death in open and limited in the early 90's have found a home with minor PF...

[Cd662]

"If we have an honest look at our divisions they are either a stagnant formula (Open, Limited) , a rules stagnant formula ( SS, Production) or a place to hide( L10, revolver)."

Soo...you don't like USPSA at all?

[2011BLDR]

"If we have an honest look at our divisions they are either a stagnant formula (Open, Limited) , a rules stagnant formula ( SS, Production) or a place to hide( L10, revolver)."

Soo...you don't like USPSA at all?

Seriously ??? Been at this since 1989, still shoot 3-5 matches a month. yes I have seen many changes and yes my opinion based on my experience is our current divisions are stagnant. If you feel different name the last "Game Changer" in any division (except Production I will give you the Unicorns).

[Nimitz]

other than the obvious attempt to placate 2 gun manufacturers who say their guns are no longer relevant and plan to back off on sponsorship, I don't get the sudden interest from USPSA to get into the world of defensive, tactical, real-world carry pistols .... don't we already have a sport for those who want to play in this world called IDPA?

I don't see much 'entry level' about these pistols which cost $1,000 + when all is said & done ....

[BritinUSA]

My primary objective for promoting this division was for a lower cost alternative to Open that may help to bring in new members to the sport and also to aid in retaining membership; As we age our eye-sight will generally deteriorate to a point where the only viable division would be Open with all the costs associated with it.

[gerritm]

I am kind of excited about this division. I have bad eyes. Not sure about the 10 round/140mm mags. Have to add some mag holders and plan a little better. Would like more real world mag capacity, but that is what it is. I shoot an open Glock 17 in 3-gun and USPSA and do not want to load major. I have a back up G34 with a Burris Fastfire III on it that I use for night matches that I think will be fun to switch up and shoot. Not sure if I will do it all of the time. If I read the rules right you cannot have a magwell?

gerritm

[BritinUSA]

Correct, no magwells.

Edited July 31, 2015 by BritinUSA

[lrjet]

I think it is a good idea. Cost would be 1/4 to 1/3 of an open 2011 with tuned mags and speed holster. I like shooting a dot better also my older eyes struggle with irons. Will be cheaper to reload than major also no chronograph in load developement. Shooting major especially with holes is painful man I can feel it in my teeth plus it saves my ears and I double plug. Be good to see how it goes.

[zhunter]

.... don't we already have a sport for those who want to play in this world called IDPA? ....

So you'd rather they go shoot another sport?

[3djedi]

I really think it is kind of cool. A taste of open without the expense and you can do it without reloading yourself. (reloading 38 super or 9 major) plus the guns will be pretty reliable and you won't have to tune the extractor and the magazines to get it to run...... So you don't have to be an amateur gunsmith.

Parts and magazines are cheap for polymer guns. Glock mags are what, $20? I had to spend $130(x4) for an MBX tuned magazine for my STi. You can almost buy another glock or m&p for what I paid for 4 magazines.

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Edited July 31, 2015 by 3djedi

[3djedi]

.... don't we already have a sport for those who want to play in this world called IDPA? ....

So you'd rather they go shoot another sport?

IDPA doesn't have optics yet, do they?

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[BritinUSA]

I really think it is kind of cool. A taste of open without the expense and you can do it without reloading yourself. (reloading 38 super or 9 major) plus the guns will be pretty reliable and you won't have to tune the extractor and the magazines to get it to run...... So you don't have to be an amateur gunsmith.

Parts and magazines are cheap for polymer guns. Glock mags are what, $20? I had to spend $130(x4) for an MBX tuned magazine for my STi. You can almost buy another glock or m&p for what I paid for 4 magazines.

Exactly ! This is the same point I have made numerous times regarding this division.

[3djedi]

I really don't get all the hostility about this new division.

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