Carry optics sub forum

[pmt]

So there would be like 12 guys at the Nationals shooting this Division? Besides its already been covered by Ass Salient Arms, a Carry Optic HiPoint endorsed by Ben Stoeger, starting at $4,300. Google up Dynamic Pie Concepts on YouTube, the Ultimate HiPoint...

Lol

We had 4 at my local Steel Challenge match last weekend. I guess we only need 8 more nationwide to meet your quota.

Well done

4 at a local match? Well done. Thats 30% MORE than the scored number of Revo shooters at the last Area 3 championship, and TWICE as many as L10.

[2011BLDR]

Well NROI finally answered on the m&p 9 performance center ported sku: 10098, Not submitted by S&W yet so not legal.

Therefore, I am now wondering exactly what “plastic gun company” was the driving force in this. Can’t be S&W as 50% of their offerings that would fit this CO Division are not legal. Oh and that would be their top 50% of offerings from the Performance Center that do fit right in to IMA Stealth Division, the other provisional / experimental division that the BOD has never heard of.

Common sense would have had CO be in line with:

· The existing carry guns already in use with slide mounted optics

· IMA Stealth Division rules

[atbarr]

Has anyone heard the term, "Kicking a Dead Horse"?

[ToddKS]

Yes. It is a specialized skill honed by years of participation on Internet forums.

[2011BLDR]

Has anyone heard the term, "Kicking a Dead Horse"?

Who is forcing you to read the new posts? if you don't care don't click the topic....

[Nimitz]

Perception is not reality. There are many people who think that the equipment determines who wins and loses.

As long as the equipment is 'suitable for purpose', i.e. it is accurate and reliable, then ANY gun can be competitive in Production/Production Optics, as long as the person holding it is fully proficient in its use.

If that were true, wouldn't everyone just run out and buy a G17, or whatever is the current cheapest 'suitable for purpose' model on the market? Wouldn't Carry Optics include the entire Prod Div list?

If people weren't sheep, yes, they could do that. But people are sheep, and believe in voodoo.

and that plastic guns are no longer competitive in Production ... Edited August 13, 2015 by Nimitz

[Nimitz]

I was wanting to get that M&P pro core performance center with the porting. I guess I'm glad I didn't buy it. Oh, could you buy this with the slide and barrel porting and replace the barrel with a non-ported one(such as a KKM in same caliber)? Would that be legal for this division?

Those are legal in production provided the barrel ported barrel is replaced and this rule says if it's production legal then you should be good to go for CO.

"Ported models are allowed providing that the barrel is non-ported and the other requirements are met."[/size]

I think we need that one in writing, The PC CORE's have an external trigger overtravel stop that production CORE's dont.

I sent an email on 30 July asking on the legality and or status of the M&P Pro CORE Performance Center pistols, and still havent gotten a response.

The lounger I think about this the more I am convinced this Provisional experiment is purposely set up to fail.

Design an exclusionary rule set:

· Not allow the whole production list

· Do not consider that this is an existing class of pistols in use by the public and that are modified beyond the production restrictions. (We are a small group of 25-50 shooters with 5 matches a month, there are at least 10 optics equipped Carry Pistols in our group and guess what none, zero are CO legal)

· Dont respond to questions or make rulings in the first part of a limited 4 mouth provisional window

I would have expected that the BOD would have had a NROI position on every current optics ready pistol in production before starting this, but no, we are waiting on rulings for models from S&W & Glock...

it takes time for the Board to contact the plastic gun lobby and ask them how they should respond to all members questions so just cut them some slack ....

Edited August 13, 2015 by Nimitz

[Nimitz]

Has anyone heard the term, "Kicking a Dead Horse"?

Who is forcing you to read the new posts? if you don't care don't click the topic....

come on, he's just picking up the slack for Sarge who doesn't seem to be interested in posting here anymore that he's not interested .... Edited August 14, 2015 by Nimitz

[eric4069]

Has anyone heard the term, "Kicking a Dead Horse"?

Who is forcing you to read the new posts? if you don't care don't click the topic....

come on, he's just picking up the slack for Sarge who doesn't seem to be interested in posting here that he's not interested ....

[eric4069]

got my Deltapoint mounted on my MP9 bedside gun, very easy to shoot small groups, looking forward to trying it in the match next wk.

Eric

[Nimitz]

I'm secretly milling the slide on my Shadow and not telling anyone about it so when the new Pres fixes this mess I can be ready to shoot Production Optics ....

[zhunter]

I'm secretly milling the slide on my Shadow and not telling anyone about it so when the new Pres fixes this mess I can be ready to shoot Production Optics ....

My wife and I have our Shadows ready to go! In the mean time I'll shoot a P-09

Edited August 14, 2015 by zhunter

[splashdown]

The linked video explains what I wanted. Maybe we'll get there someday. This was posted a few weeks before the BOD meeting. Yes, I am speaking to a broad audience that may not be shooting competition yet, so I feel the need to bring them up to speed. You can fast forward a few minutes.

I also later thought that full cap mags would not be good. Allowing full cap mags could result in production shooters using their regular iron sighted Prod guns in CO, just so they would not have to reload. I think this forces CO to be a 10 round division. Having said that, you can't have a major/minor 10-round division b/c minor would not be competitive, and we don't want that. Result is I think this has to be a 10-round minor division, which is what we got.

Personally I'm excited about trying it out, even if what we got was basically "Production Optics."

[3djedi]

I've seen zero CO around here. Not a division for it and not anybody shooting optics.

I'd like to try it though. But I really want the m&p core with the porting. Unported barrel for the game but I don't think that gun will ever be legal.

Sent from my LG-D850 using Tapatalk

Edited August 15, 2015 by 3djedi

[splashdown]

I just messaged the A1 Director (bgary) and he says that the 500 production run entry level was intended to allow other guns not already on the Prod list to play in CO. That's not what Appendix D7 says. It says the gun has to already be on the Prod list. Message Troy and push for a ruling if you want to use the PC CORE or other gun not on the list.

[alma]

I just messaged the A1 Director (bgary) and he says that the 500 production run entry level was intended to allow other guns not already on the Prod list to play in CO. That's not what Appendix D7 says. It says the gun has to already be on the Prod list. Message Troy and push for a ruling if you want to use the PC CORE or other gun not on the list.

It's both. Either it can be already on the Production gun list or once the manufacturer has made 500 they can submit it specifically for CO.

"A handgun may be approved specifically for Carry Optics division provided that the model of the pistol used is an approved Production Division model AND meets Carry Optics criteria. Any pistol that is not on the approved Production list, but meets Carry Optics criteria must submit a Manufacturers Declaration Form to DNROI stating that a minimum of 500 complete handguns have been manufactured and are available to the general public"

[3djedi]

So that means there's hope!

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[2011BLDR]

The linked video explains what I wanted. Maybe we'll get there someday. This was posted a few weeks before the BOD meeting. Yes, I am speaking to a broad audience that may not be shooting competition yet, so I feel the need to bring them up to speed. You can fast forward a few minutes.

I also later thought that full cap mags would not be good. Allowing full cap mags could result in production shooters using their regular iron sighted Prod guns in CO, just so they would not have to reload. I think this forces CO to be a 10 round division. Having said that, you can't have a major/minor 10-round division b/c minor would not be competitive, and we don't want that. Result is I think this has to be a 10-round minor division, which is what we got.

Personally I'm excited about trying it out, even if what we got was basically "Production Optics."

Ko

https://youtu.be/P87oMREoET8

I disagree. It should be full capacity minor, not having an optic would be the disqulafier for a production gun signing up as CO just as it is for a CO gun to sine up as production.

I really want this to reflect the guns that are actually being carried. I bag carry one everyday as aback up to my on body carry.. in my shooting group we have 10 Guns(with optics)in a core group of 40 shooters that are carried and or used in other shooting games ( 3gun/ 2gun / steel only) none of them meet CO restrictions: over stippled / over machined.

Edited August 16, 2015 by 2011BLDR

[BritinUSA]

So that means there's hope!

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Yep, now you just need to find a contact at S&W and get them to submit the paperwork. Hopefully someone at Glock is working on it too for the MOS variants.

[splashdown]

I'm with you 2011BLDR. If we could say full cap mags, optic required to play, that would be the ticket.

[Adam B]

I think 15 rounds with a slide mounted reddot would be a riot. I was always curious why USPSA wouldnt go to 15 rounds after IPSC did.

[3djedi]

I agree. 15 rounds is the ticket.

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[trgt]

I'm secretly milling the slide on my Shadow and not telling anyone about it so when the new Pres fixes this mess I can be ready to shoot Production Optics ....

My wife and I have our Shadows ready to go! In the mean time I'll shoot a P-09

Me also! Milled accu-shadow (currently Open Minor Gun), and P-09 to play now

[2011BLDR]

I think we should go with the factory magazine limitations, replacement base pads that don't add capacity allowed.that will mix it up with some of the lighter guns at 17+1 and the heavy guns at 15+1, bring back some freestyle. I hate the load limits in SS, and production. Back in the 90's we had a GM in my local club that kicked all the 2011 wide body's butts with his SS .45 OPEN gun on a perty regular basis.. You don't need arbitrary load limits if you have well designed stages ( targets available from muitapal positions+ Lots of movement )

Edited August 16, 2015 by 2011BLDR

[Gooldylocks]

I think we should go with the factory magazine limitations, replacement base pads that don't add capacity allowed.that will mix it up with some of the lighter guns at 17+1 and the heavy guns at 15+1, bring back some freestyle. I hate the load limits in SS, and production. Back in the 90's we had a GM in my local club that kicked all the 2011 wide body's butts with his SS .45 OPEN gun on a perty regular basis.. You don't need arbitrary load limits if you have well designed stages ( targets available from muitapal positions+ Lots of movement )

And in turn, making the P09 even more so the most dominant platform with its 19 round magazine! CZ still wins!

I think 10 rounds is good, so then those that live in ban states can still play on even footing, and it won't turn into "having" to shoot only either an XDm or P09, since they have the highest capacity.