Carry optics sub forum

[2011BLDR]

Excluded mods:

Comps

Barrel ports

Slide Rackers

Thumb rest

I would prefer to also continue excluding mag-wells personally

Eric

Extended 141.25mm mags with no mag well? IMO would be fugley ....

[zhunter]

Many of you are making suggestions for an open minor gun.

Production rules, production guns (yes get rid of the weight limit) with a slide mounted optic.

If it goes beyond this its a waste of time.

[lcs]

In previous threads, I was for the 15 limit in Production. After shooting Production exclusively for the last four months, 10 rounds is challenging. It's not just about fast mag changes, it's also stage break down.

If you allow more than 10 rounds in CO, it will become "who can run the fastest through a COF".

I don't like the weight limit. Really can't see any arms race developing if the same gun rules applied as in Production. (Add 1.5 oz limit and be done with it)

The mag length size of >= 141.25MM is odd to say the least. Why 141.25 when you can only load to 10?

Having said that, let's just quick griping and asking for more. Give the Dvision a chance as is.

The one thing I AGREE with....If you declare CO, then you must use a CO gun. You can't jump in the Division with a G34 with iron sites. Why?

You might be a M class and you would skew the results. If you want to shoot iron--stay in Production.

[Beastly]

I LIKE the 10 round cap. It simply forces additional gun handling skills, stage planning and execution. I hate the mag capacity gaming - too much time and $ tied up in sport/rule-specific minutae. A few extra mags/pouches is so much simpler.

[gng4life]

In previous threads, I was for the 15 limit in Production. After shooting Production exclusively for the last four months, 10 rounds is challenging. It's not just about fast mag changes, it's also stage break down.

I do agree to an extent but with 10 rounds, the strategy is to do mag changes often or during every movement. I don't believe that is all that complicated. I've only been shooting Production for 3-4 months also but that's what I've seen so far. I'm still all in for the 10 round limit in CO. I probably won't shoot it but if I did, I would hope it would be that way. I really don't want an Open lite so I hope all the Production type stuff stays in there also.

[eric4069]

Many of you are making suggestions for an open minor gun.

Production rules, production guns (yes get rid of the weight limit) with a slide mounted optic.

If it goes beyond this its a waste of time.

overall agree but I would wish for no restriction on location of grip tape/stippling in CO to accommidate those who already have those items on CO type guns in non Production type locations.

Eric

Edited August 21, 2015 by eric4069

[Punished]

all I want is production with a red dot (I love reloading and my eyes hurt looking at irons after staring at a computer screen for 8+ hours day). I love reloading, my favorite part actually.... same with shotgun stages in 3 gun, I'd shoot my 2011 in L10 if that was actually possible around here. I've honestly day dreamed many times over the past few years about having an open gun with 10 rounds so I can reload in between arrays. I'd do it now, but the fact that I'd come somewhere in the bottom 1/3 because I'm reloading for no reason doesn't make my competition side happy.

production with a red dot! no other rule changes.

Edited August 21, 2015 by Punished

[2011BLDR]

Production opits was presented and voted down due to production Shooters complaining to the BOD that they didn't want it... 12 months later we have CO ... IMO the intent is to evolve this in to something that is new and different then all other Divisions....

[2011BLDR]

The last thing we need is another low capacity division 4 of the current 6 are already ...the federal ban went away 11 years ago.

[Punished]

I don't really care if we called it WO. I just want to shoot with a red dot and not have to make my own 9major loads. And preferably reload more than 2 times a stage . I'd be ok with single stack optics.

Edited August 22, 2015 by Punished

[Nimitz]

i don't think the decision to have stand alone Nationals has anything to do with offering the full range of divisions at matches. what gives MDs the authority to only offer the divisions they like? When you hang the USPSA banner out for a match isn't ther an expectation about what that match will offer? Do you really believe it's appropriate to only offer the divisions YOU want as MD. I'd love to hear what leadership thinks about that?

Here is the rule on divisions:

6.2.1 USPSA Divisions recognize different handguns and equipment (see Appendix D). Each match must recognize at least one Division. When multiple Divisions are available in a match, each Division must be scored separately and independently, and match results must recognize a winner in each Division.

Ya gotta have at least one

wow ... that's .... disappointing ..... obviously shooters will vote with there feet if not enough divisions are offered at a match but with something like a new provisional division which will be decided based on participation levels, allowing MDs to exclude a division they don't care for won't be reflected in the data ....

Also, "offering" a particular divison at a match is nothing more then scoring those shooters separately, & if you're doing electronic scoring there is really no extra work ....

So, you'd rather "Require" MD's to do things a certain way? That only works for so long -- before the volunteers stop volunteering.......

I'd rather give MDs the option to know their local audience and to tailor the match to their customer base....

Are you really suggesting that most MDs are so petty that they would stop being MDs simply because they were required to offer all recognized divisions at their matches?

I just don't see any down side to offering all the recognized divisions at a match? No revolver shooters show up? So what? it doesn't affect anything else and doesn't require any extra work on the MD's part.

At our monthly match you could shoot any recognized USPSA division. We would get maybe 1-2 revolver shooters at one or two matches for the whole year, same for SS. Didn't matter, when they showed up their one time they could shoot their dvision ... that's customer service ....

Edited August 22, 2015 by Nimitz

[Gary Stevens]

I've said before all the guns on the Production list should be in the CO Division.

I also like the idea of something new. Perhaps it would be good to go to factory magazine capacity in CO. Now is the time to experiment while it is provisional. It can be adjusted later if needed.

[Nimitz]

I've said before all the guns on the Production list should be in the CO Division.

I also like the idea of something new. Perhaps it would be good to go to factory magazine capacity in CO. Now is the time to experiment while it is provisional. It can be adjusted later if needed.

agreed. I don't really care about the mag capacity thing. Leave it 10 as is or increase it .... I've been executing stage planning around 10 rd mags for so long it's second nature; increase it and planning gets a little easier ... ain't gonna make me a GM any sooner ...

[eric4069]

The one thing I AGREE with....If you declare CO, then you must use a CO gun. You can't jump in the Division with a G34 with iron sites. Why?

You might be a M class and you would skew the results. If you want to shoot iron--stay in Production.

I don't agree with this for two reasons:

1. Who cares what gun/sights the M class shooter uses? they will "skew the results" regardless and I don't worry about them (not being M class myself).

2. I would like to be able to bring along a backup gun just in case my dot battery goes out (or any other substantial malfunction). My back up would be any qualifying gun I happened to own but would probably not have an optic. I don't see why that would be a problem. If the dot is an advantage then my backup gun would be at a disadvantage anyway.

Eric

[lcs]

The one thing I AGREE with....If you declare CO, then you must use a CO gun. You can't jump in the Division with a G34 with iron sites. Why?

You might be a M class and you would skew the results. If you want to shoot iron--stay in Production.

I don't agree with this for two reasons:

1. Who cares what gun/sights the M class shooter uses? they will "skew the results" regardless and I don't worry about them (not being M class myself).

2. I would like to be able to bring along a backup gun just in case my dot battery goes out (or any other substantial malfunction). My back up would be any qualifying gun I happened to own but would probably not have an optic. I don't see why that would be a problem. If the dot is an advantage then my backup gun would be at a disadvantage anyway.

Eric

Bring along a backup CO optic gun, just like I do in Open. Bring another optic. If I was shooting CO at an Area level match, I'd have a spare COgun and I bet most serious competitors would have backup guns also.

[lcs]

I've said before all the guns on the Production list should be in the CO Division.

I also like the idea of something new. Perhaps it would be good to go to factory magazine capacity in CO. Now is the time to experiment while it is provisional. It can be adjusted later if needed.

I think most of us would have liked the same list as Production also.

Something new is fine.....I have no problem 15 or whatever the mag will hold. I'm just glad to see the CO Division and I'm neither for or against the 10 round limit.

[Gooldylocks]

I would say that if we go with increased capacity (I still like 10) then it should be 140mm, same as limited. That way we don't end up with "one gun to rule them all," based solely on magazine capacity. Making it 140 keeps the playing field level, because everyone will have 22-23 rounds.

But I still prefer 10.

[zhunter]

I would say that if we go with increased capacity (I still like 10) then it should be 140mm, same as limited. That way we don't end up with "one gun to rule them all," based solely on magazine capacity. Making it 140 keeps the playing field level, because everyone will have 22-23 rounds.

But I still prefer 10.

I think sticking with Production rules is best, it's simple and a 140mm mag is too close to Open for my taste

[Gooldylocks]

I would say that if we go with increased capacity (I still like 10) then it should be 140mm, same as limited. That way we don't end up with "one gun to rule them all," based solely on magazine capacity. Making it 140 keeps the playing field level, because everyone will have 22-23 rounds.

But I still prefer 10.

I think sticking with Production rules is best, it's simple and a 140mm mag is too close to Open for my taste

I can certainly understand the motivation to have a division with its very own max ammo capacity (23 is currently unique), but I feel like keeping it at 10 allows those people that prefer to shoot something other than a 9 to do so with no consequences.

But if it is going to be changed, it should be to a set length, not just "factory capacity."

[ebg3]

I still like the idea of going to 15 rds like IPSC for Production and Carry Optics.

Edited August 27, 2015 by ebg3

[zhunter]

I still like the idea of going to 15 rds like IPSC and I think Production should do the same.

What does 15 rounds do that 10 rounds doesn't do when we have 8 round arrays?

[BritinUSA]

From DownRange newsletter:

High Hit Factors for Carry Optics Division have been entered into EZWinScore, so all uploaded classifier data will be run in the regular classifier update cycle. High Hit Factors were determined by using data from Production and Open divisions, using a factor for each classifier based on four parameters: Speed, Accuracy, Mechanical (reloads, etc), and Scoring system (Comstock/Virginia/Fixed Time). All HHF numbers were manually compared with HHFs for the other divisions to determine if a CO HHF was inordinately skewed. Keep in mind that the HHFs will be subject to change as data for this provisional division is input into the system. The HHF data for this division will be posted on the USPSA Web page.

[ebg3]

I still like the idea of going to 15 rds like IPSC and I think Production should do the same.

What does 15 rounds do that 10 rounds doesn't do when we have 8 round arrays?

Really nothing. I do see a lot of instances where with only one or two steps you can start on the next array.

[mrpredictable]

I still like the idea of going to 15 rds like IPSC and I think Production should do the same.

What does 15 rounds do that 10 rounds doesn't do when we have 8 round arrays?

Slide lock reload after the second array.

[alma]

Plus you might occasionally shoot a match where every stage isn't made up of eight round arrays.