"Over the Berm" in an Indoor Range

[Braxton1]

An interesting discussion started a few weeks ago as the result of a DQ that was issued:

Shooter is engaging a target array. On the last target, he "stutters" the trigger pull so the second shot is late. He'd already started bending his elbows when the second shot broke, so it flies well over the head of the target and into the roof baffles on the indoor range. I see white dust fly from the impact into the baffle. I called the DQ. (Just so you can picture it, it wasn't into the baffle that is usually just above the backstop; it was the third baffle up from the backstop. Had it been a typical outdoor match, the neighbors would've been dealing with that bullet.)

Here's where it gets interesting: 10.4.1 defines an Accidental Discharge as "A shot, which travels over a backstop, a berm or in any other direction, specified in the written stage briefing by the match organizers as being unsafe. Note that a competitor who legitimately fires a shot at a target, which then travels in an unsafe direction, will not be disqualified (the provisions of Section 2.3 may apply).".

On most properly-designed indoor ranges, any shot fired at an angle less than "straight-up" is likely to be caught by the baffles, so the bullet never actually leaves the range. (I know that "leaves the range" is not in the rulebook, but I believe that we can agree that this is the intent behind the quoted rule.) The backstop is usually rubber chips, sand, or some other media that is only 7 feet or so tall. The "travels over a backstop" standard is REALLY tight.

Was the DQ proper, since the shooter had already started bending his arms and cranked the round over the backstop?

[ron169]

8.5.1 finger out of the trigger guard unless aiming or shooting at targets.

[Dimitri]

I think that if the WSB (or the rules of the indoor range) say that the berm is 7 ft high then the DQ was OK.

(maybe the DQ can also be due to 10.5.2 or even 10.4.6)

[ktm300]

it was the third baffle up from the backstop.

Here's where it gets interesting: 10.4.1 defines an Accidental Discharge as "A shot, which travels over a backstop, a berm or in any other direction, specified in the written stage briefing by the match organizers as being unsafe. Note that a competitor who legitimately fires a shot at a target, which then travels in an unsafe direction, will not be disqualified (the provisions of Section 2.3 may apply).".

Yes that's a DQ in any indoor range I have shot in. You say he put one over the backstop and the rule says the same thing.

[Graham Smith]

Sounds like a good call to me. At the indoor range I used to belong to, putting one into the overhead could have gotten your membership suspended.

[Sarge]

Into the ceiling translates easily into over the berm

[JayWord]

Into the ceiling translates easily into over the berm

Most indoor clubs in the country, into the ceiling, baffled or not is over the berm. In my old home club, any round into the side walls was a DQ also since they were unprotected and rounds rattling around in the gun store or alley was an issue.

Many years ago, a shooter got lost in a low light stage, shot into the back of a no-shoot and the only reason the round did not go into the gun store was the bullet resistant glass window. That cost the club a place to shoot and the cost of the window.

Jay

Edited July 20, 2015 by JayWord

[Gary Stevens]

Into the ceiling translates easily into over the berm

Most indoor clubs in the country, into the ceiling, baffled or not is over the berm. In my old home club, any round into the side walls was a DQ also since they were unprotected and rounds rattling around in the gun store or alley was an issue.

Many years ago, a shooter got lost in a low light stage, shot into the back of a no-shoot and the only reason the round did not go into the gun store was the bullet resistant glass window. That cost the club a place to shoot and the cost of the window.

Jay

Did the shooter want to change the rule? Seems like that is first choice when someone screws up : sarcasm mode off :

[Vlad]

Unless you had a target glued to the baffles this is a non-issue. Common sense is actually allowed to occasionally show up, despite the what some people will like you think

[Flash74]

Common sense is actually allowed to occasionally show up, despite the what some people will like you think

This is the best comment I have read in a while. In an indoor range, if a round doesn't hit the backstop I think a DQ is in order (unless it is out of the shooters control). There is not much margin for error.

[gng4life]

Unless you had a target glued to the baffles this is a non-issue. Common sense is actually allowed to occasionally show up, despite the what some people will like you think

Nice!

[sundevil827]

Common sense is actually allowed to occasionally show up, despite the what some people will like you think

This is the best comment I have read in a while. In an indoor range, if a round doesn't hit the backstop I think a DQ is in order (unless it is out of the shooters control). There is not much margin for error.

Can you give a "for example" of a way a round could hit not hit backstop and actually be out of the shooters control?

I'm not asking it as a pain, I was just sitting here trying to come up with reasons, and just about every one that I could think of, ultimately I ended up saying "within the shooters control".

[thermobollocks]

This is why at our indoor range I specify in WSBs and we verbally explain at the shooter's meeting that bullets must impact the backstop.

Well, more specifically, mine say "Do not shoot props, walls, ceiling, lights, RO, self, or others."

Can you give a "for example" of a way a round could hit not hit backstop and actually be out of the shooters control?

I'm not asking it as a pain, I was just sitting here trying to come up with reasons, and just about every one that I could think of, ultimately I ended up saying "within the shooters control".

I'd give somewhat of an allowance for a broken gun, such as one that rips off a burst, or God forbid magdumps. Then it becomes an unsafe gun rather than unsafe gun handling.

Edited July 22, 2015 by thermobollocks

[Poppa Bear]

Common sense is actually allowed to occasionally show up, despite the what some people will like you think

This is the best comment I have read in a while. In an indoor range, if a round doesn't hit the backstop I think a DQ is in order (unless it is out of the shooters control). There is not much margin for error.

Can you give a "for example" of a way a round could hit not hit backstop and actually be out of the shooters control?

I'm not asking it as a pain, I was just sitting here trying to come up with reasons, and just about every one that I could think of, ultimately I ended up saying "within the shooters control".

The only one I have seen is a poorly set up stage that had an exploitable hole which allowed a target to be engaged cross range. The bullet hit the side wall just in front of the backstop. We closed the hole and had them reshoot. The shot WAS in the shooters control, but not a DQ'able offence. Every other shot that hit the side walls was a DQ for some form of an AD.

[Poppa Bear]

This is why at our indoor range I specify in WSBs and we verbally explain at the shooter's meeting that bullets must impact the backstop.

Well, more specifically, mine say "Do not shoot props, walls, ceiling, lights, RO, self, or others."

Can you give a "for example" of a way a round could hit not hit backstop and actually be out of the shooters control?

I'm not asking it as a pain, I was just sitting here trying to come up with reasons, and just about every one that I could think of, ultimately I ended up saying "within the shooters control".

I'd give somewhat of an allowance for a broken gun, such as one that rips off a burst, or God forbid magdumps. Then it becomes an unsafe gun rather than unsafe gun handling.

True as long as it does not violate 10.4.1. Over the berm or into the side wall would still be a DQ because we do not have a broken gun exemption anymore.

[Flash74]

My thought of out of the shooters control would be a second shot on a falling popper, hitting a stage prop, barrel, etc. redirecting the bullet somewhere other than the backstop.

[Sarge]

My thought of out of the shooters control would be a second shot on a falling popper, hitting a stage prop, barrel, etc. redirecting the bullet somewhere other than the backstop.

OK. We are either talking indoors or outdoors here. I thought it was indoors? The rule book gives exemptions for launching over a berm outdoors. but indoors can be a different animal not entirely covered by the rule book. i.e. shooting into a side wall.

Steel poppers are an outdoor issue. If the sun is right you can watch splatter and rounds leave a bay all day long but that is acceptable under the rules.

Anybody shooting indoors must certainly know you can't shoot into a solid concrete side wall. It shouldn't take a shooter doing that first before it gets fixed. If somebody does a walkthrough and sees a shot that goes into a side wall they need to speak up and not be dumb enough to take the shot!

[Vlad]

You can certainly use steel poppers indoors as well. I'm not understanding how that matters.

[Sarge]

Shooting steel indoors would do quite a bit of damage no?

[jester121]

Anybody shooting indoors must certainly know you can't shoot into a solid concrete side wall.

I don't think that's a certainty at all, lots of new guys don't know what should and shouldn't be shot -- unless they are told.

[ATLDave]

We shoot steel almost every week at the indoor match I attend. We use wooden baffles that go around the top and sides of the poppers to catch most of the splatter. In roughly 2 years of shooting almost every week, I have seen one flourescent tube get popped by the splatter... otherwise, no damage that I can think of.

Edited July 23, 2015 by ATLDave

[thermobollocks]

Shooting steel indoors would do quite a bit of damage no?

[Sarge]

Shooting steel indoors would do quite a bit of damage no?

I have seen all of this stuff to include tires put around plates. This ain't Europe where we have to hide our activities from everybody and get super creative with indoor ranges. These indoor ranges look nothing like the concrete rooms I shoot in on rare occasions.

[Sarge]

We shoot steel almost every week at the indoor match I attend. We use wooden baffles that go around the top and sides of the poppers to catch most of the splatter. In roughly 2 years of shooting almost every week, I have seen one flourescent tube get popped by the splatter... otherwise, no damage that I can think of.

I make it a point to not shoot indoors more than I have to. Mostly in the winter just for occasional practice. Much easier to use white paper plates as steel plates.

[Nimitz]

I have a couple friends who just got charter memberships in a new indoor range that is only a couple of miles from where we work so they can shoot during lunch .... other than going there to zero my guns instead of driving the 18 miles to my club I can't imagine ever shooting there ....