Jayohee Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 Had this debate with a buddy of mine during practice. I tend to load a mag during MR to practice the draw for a particular drill and as I'm getting a sight picture I dry fire my DA trigger. Is this illegal/DQ-able? The argument he made was that the gun may be 'considered loaded' once the mag is inserted. Heading to Nat's in August so I definitely don't want to make a huge mistake... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LilBunniFuFu Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 Did the gun discharge before the start signal? No, then I don't see a problem. Might make a few RO's uncomfortable but shouldn't get you DQ'ed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnote Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 Not a DQ, but maybe not a wise way to program yourself for "make ready". Go to another platform or striker gun and racking the slide is necessary for the trigger pull. May not happen ever, but MR Murphy has a way of showing up and a DQ from a match would be on the low end of potential consequences Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayohee Posted June 20, 2015 Author Share Posted June 20, 2015 Did the gun discharge before the start signal? No, then I don't see a problem. Might make a few RO's uncomfortable but shouldn't get you DQ'ed. No I don't rack the slide/chamber until I'm gtg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMike Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 The real question is: Is the insertion of a loaded magazine, without chambering a round, constitute a loaded pistol? The rules are a little vague and subject to interpretation I suppose but I've never seen anyone do that and would advise against it. I doubt you would see any top shooters doing that. If no major "top" shooter is doing it, why would you? My take is it *might* not be a DQ'able offense but it is extremely poor form. Why even go there, especially at a major match? Practice draws and taking sight pictures with dummy rounds in a magazine at home, not on the firing line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 The real question is: Is the insertion of a loaded magazine, without chambering a round, constitute a loaded pistol? The rules are a little vague and subject to interpretation I suppose but I've never seen anyone do that and would advise against it. I doubt you would see any top shooters doing that. If no major "top" shooter is doing it, why would you? My take is it *might* not be a DQ'able offense but it is extremely poor form. Why even go there, especially at a major match? Practice draws and taking sight pictures with dummy rounds in a magazine at home, not on the firing line. You might want to look up Loaded Firearm in the glossary (A3 page 58). Not very vague. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 Yes the gun is loaded, No it's not a DQ., Yes it is a bad habit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racnsoonr Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 If you do this, don't forget to flip the safety on if you have one before you reholster or you will dq, correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMike Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 The real question is: Is the insertion of a loaded magazine, without chambering a round, constitute a loaded pistol? The rules are a little vague and subject to interpretation I suppose but I've never seen anyone do that and would advise against it. I doubt you would see any top shooters doing that. If no major "top" shooter is doing it, why would you? My take is it *might* not be a DQ'able offense but it is extremely poor form. Why even go there, especially at a major match? Practice draws and taking sight pictures with dummy rounds in a magazine at home, not on the firing line. You might want to look up Loaded Firearm in the glossary (A3 page 58). Not very vague. >>>Loaded Firearm: A firearm having a live round, empty case or dummy round in the chamber or cylinder, or having a live or dummy round in a magazine inserted in the firearm. <<< Emphasis is mine Loading: The insertion of ammunition into a firearm. Loading is completed when ammunition is inserted and firearm is in battery, (slide forward or cylinder closed), and ready to fire. <<< Yep, having reviewed the rule book, I see that I missed what constitutes a "loaded firearm" and looked only at "loading" definition. You are correct Sir, my bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 so the real question to the OP is: why do you do this at MR at a match? I assume you do everything for a reason but I'm struggling as to what perceived benefit this has? You've read all the negatives here .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 (edited) If you do this, don't forget to flip the safety on if you have one before you reholster or you will dq, correct? Sounds like the op is shooting Production? Hammer would be down and no need for safety to be engaged. If you look at the ready conditions in the rulebook they all require a round in the chamber to be violated. Edited June 20, 2015 by Sarge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmca Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 OP, what is the advantage of doing this, that outweights the disadvantages? Just would like to know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 Sounds like the op is shooting Production? Hammer would be down and no need for safety to be engaged. If you look at the ready conditions in the rulebook they all require a round in the chamber to be violated. A dq under 10.5.11, however does not require a round to have been loaded in the chamber -- so caution is advised, with regards to acceptable ways to holster a firearm containing a loaded mag..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayohee Posted June 20, 2015 Author Share Posted June 20, 2015 (edited) Just sent this to Troy and waiting for his response. As far as advantages go for me it's about practicing draws with the full weight of the gun, ie: classifiers. Example - Fluffy's Revenge. Draw and shoot 3 paper and 2 steel. Drawing an empty gun is great but it doesn't reflect the true weight you'll have to work with. Many classifiers require a perfect draw to hit the higher levels of classification. I have a 91% coming in and only need another 95-100% to get bumped up. Edited June 20, 2015 by Jayohee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bockerSV Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 I'm pretty sure this wouldn't be a dq as far as I understand, and I get why you'd want to practice a draw with a loaded mag to simulate the weight, but I try to give RO's as few reasons to have heart attacks as possible so I would probably just try to get a couple of, magazine full of dummy round, dryfire draws in before I left for the range that day instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 Sounds like the op is shooting Production? Hammer would be down and no need for safety to be engaged. If you look at the ready conditions in the rulebook they all require a round in the chamber to be violated. A dq under 10.5.11, however does not require a round to have been loaded in the chamber -- so caution is advised, with regards to acceptable ways to holster a firearm containing a loaded mag..... This just brings more light to the fact the rule book needs more standardization. Look at 10.5.11.1 and 10.5.11.2. A single action does not require hammer to be cocked to be a dq yet you can't apply the saFETY if it's not cocked. DA says hammer must be cocked without safety on to be DQ. makes zero sense. Ready conditions should be more in line with this as well. Makes no difference to the op. Keep doing what you are doing if it's what you like. It's not illegal. We used to have a local guy that did the same thing. He shot a glock and used to rack a round in the chamber and everything then took several sight pictures actually moving his trigger finger. Pretty risky but perfectly legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LilBunniFuFu Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 The real question is: Is the insertion of a loaded magazine, without chambering a round, constitute a loaded pistol? The rules are a little vague and subject to interpretation I suppose but I've never seen anyone do that and would advise against it. I doubt you would see any top shooters doing that. If no major "top" shooter is doing it, why would you? My take is it *might* not be a DQ'able offense but it is extremely poor form. Why even go there, especially at a major match? Practice draws and taking sight pictures with dummy rounds in a magazine at home, not on the firing line. Have you seen the super squad at a steel challenge event? All of their sight pictures are loaded ones. Granted, they do not pull the trigger but they weight of a full mag is pretty influential when the rule is only three seconds or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayohee Posted June 20, 2015 Author Share Posted June 20, 2015 Just got a reply from Troy and he said it's totally legal. That said if it ever goes BANG! then it's going to be a short day... Thanks for the responses guys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justpaul Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 Great post Joe, I have always wondered if your make ready routine was legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Sounds like the op is shooting Production? Hammer would be down and no need for safety to be engaged. If you look at the ready conditions in the rulebook they all require a round in the chamber to be violated. A dq under 10.5.11, however does not require a round to have been loaded in the chamber -- so caution is advised, with regards to acceptable ways to holster a firearm containing a loaded mag..... This just brings more light to the fact the rule book needs more standardization. Look at 10.5.11.1 and 10.5.11.2. A single action does not require hammer to be cocked to be a dq yet you can't apply the saFETY if it's not cocked. DA says hammer must be cocked without safety on to be DQ. makes zero sense. Ready conditions should be more in line with this as well. Makes no difference to the op. Keep doing what you are doing if it's what you like. It's not illegal. We used to have a local guy that did the same thing. He shot a glock and used to rack a round in the chamber and everything then took several sight pictures actually moving his trigger finger. Pretty risky but perfectly legal. We agree on that one, I think -- unless NROI wants to make a compelling argument why a hammer down 1911/2011/other SA would need to have the safety on, if the chamber is unloaded..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayohee Posted June 22, 2015 Author Share Posted June 22, 2015 Great post Joe, I have always wondered if your make ready routine was legal. Yeah me too. Especially after Steve's suggestion to look it up in the rule book lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 Just got a reply from Troy and he said it's totally legal. That said if it ever goes BANG! then it's going to be a short day... Thanks for the responses guys that's pretty much exactly what I would have said. I've done it myself a few times, usually just because I put the mag in, and then I remember I want to do a couple trigger pulls. I think it's a better idea to do the trigger pulls first tho. I dry-fire enough with a loaded (dummy) mag at home that it's not really going to make a difference at Make Ready. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAFO Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 (edited) Sounds like the op is shooting Production? Hammer would be down and no need for safety to be engaged. If you look at the ready conditions in the rulebook they all require a round in the chamber to be violated. A dq under 10.5.11, however does not require a round to have been loaded in the chamber -- so caution is advised, with regards to acceptable ways to holster a firearm containing a loaded mag.....This just brings more light to the fact the rule book needs more standardization. Look at 10.5.11.1 and 10.5.11.2. A single action does not require hammer to be cocked to be a dq yet you can't apply the saFETY if it's not cocked. DA says hammer must be cocked without safety on to be DQ. makes zero sense. Ready conditions should be more in line with this as well. If he's shooting Production and dry-fires with an empty chamber, his hammer would be down. But it will be cocked after he chambers it (unless it's a DAO), hence the need to decock or apply the safety. I don't see the problem with 10.5.11, though. You said yourself that you cannot apply the safety of a SAO pistol without the hammer cocked, so there doesn't seem to be a reason to point out the hammer condition for the DQ, just the safety position. As for the DA or DA/SA pistol, they have to state hammer cocked for that one because hammer down with no safety applied is the legal start position for a DA. A DA/SA pistol starting in SA with the hammer cocked (e.g., in Limited) must have the safety applied. Edited June 22, 2015 by JAFO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 One of the potential concerns with 10.5.11 is that it appears to mandate a DQ if a shooter inserts a loaded mag, but forgets to rack one into the chamber of a 1911, and then holsters...... Realistically it's not unsafe if the hammer is down, and the safety is not applied...... Do the same thing with a Glock, or a DAO Sig, or an XD/M&P etc -- and all is groovy...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 Well, it's the rule, and if we can't remember it maybe we should question our ability to do this sport. This is about 1911s, not Glocks, yes? The thumb safety may be the only safety, and forgetting to set it could be a problem. What is it they say, don't practice things you don't want to do in live fire? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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