AZoneZenSeeker Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 Newbie here. Long time lurker, first post. Although I am still only at the point of gaining proficiency in marksmanship skills, I want to work toward competition shooting such as IDPA/USPSA. I have read in many places that it is best to pick a competition gun and stick with It, rather than switching back and fourth. I plan on shooting SSP/Production classes. I am not looking for a recommendation for a specific gun. I know the possibilities are numerous. Also, it is likely I could not buy the recommended gun, since I live in California where we have a "roster" of acceptable guns. Getting recommendations for guns I cannot buy is just depressing. So, I am looking for more general info: SA or DA/ SA? Is trigger control on a DA/SA gun (1911, CZ 75, etc) easier than on SA guns, after the first shot? Or, is the trigger weight of the first shot more of detriment to overall score? Weight of Gun? Is there a trade off of recoil control vs ease of driving the gun? Does a lighter weight "poly" gun (Glock, XD, etc) allow you to get on targets and transition to targets faster? Will a heavier gun (CZ) make recoil easier to control? If so, which is more beneficial for competition? Manual Safety? Is there a benefit to not having to deal with the safety as part of the draw? If a DA/SA gun has a manual safety, are you allowed to cock the gun before holstering if the safety is on? I know good instruction and loads of practice is the most important thing. Just want to get best gun to be practicing with. Would like it to become part of my arm before I start competition! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 Welcome to the forum! I don't do IDPA but I suggest that you go read Appendix D4 here: http://www.uspsa.org/document_library/rules/2014/Feb%202014%20Handgun%20Rules.pdf Short version: Single Action guns are not allowed in production division*. And the gun must be fully decocked in the holster. Later, Chuck * In USPSA, divisions are for equipment, classes for people Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZoneZenSeeker Posted June 11, 2015 Author Share Posted June 11, 2015 (edited) ChuckS, thanks for the link. Also, thanks for clarification on USPSA "Divisons". I guess I proved I am in the Newbie "Class" of people :-). (I don't even know how to use emoticons!) So, a Striker fired pistol would avoid the External safety manipulation and the DA first trigger pull weight! Edited June 11, 2015 by AZoneZenSeeker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.E. Kelley Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 (edited) Glock, DA/SA CZ or Tanfoglio, Grand Power, Sig P320, Walther PPQ M2, HK VP9 All are just fine...pick one you can buy and shoot the snot out of it....BUT!!!! Don't wait " it to become part of my arm before I start competition!" Once you know the manual of arms and can safely run the gun...BEGIN competition shooting...you will learn more by doing and have more fun in the process. Edited June 11, 2015 by P.E. Kelley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 CZ P-09 is a great low cost gun to start with, the trigger can be tuned very easily watching some YouTube videos. Super gun, mags are a bit expensive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjdaniel78 Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 Another vote for the P-09. I am transferring over to one now from a XD 9mm Tactical. It is a great gun, as is the P-07, which I have had for a while. To specifically answer your questions: (engage novel mode) DA/SA vs Striker will be a preference, but don't judge DA/SA on a stock trigger pull. Find someone that has a gun with a worked trigger before hanging your hat on striker fired. I made that mistake 7-8 years ago and wasted a lot of money on Glock's (which I don't shoot well) and XD's (which I like, just not for competition) because I was basing my DA/SA trigger experience on a bone stock Beretta 92 and a Taurus PT111 that I shot. The DA is only one shot and if the gun is setup correctly, the SA pull will always be crisper than a striker. I still like striker fired and my CCW is a S&W Shield (striker), but my competition guns are now DA/SA, all of them. I do have some 1911's and revolvers, but they are range toys. Weight - this is a personal thing. Some like a gun with more nose weight and some like less. Almost no one likes a lightweight gun. The P-09 is a decent weight for a polymer gun and I feel it is well distributed. Find someone with a really nose heavy steel gun and do some dry fire transitions, say 6 reload 6. Then try the same with a polymer gun. See what you find easier to stop and start with? Which is more stable with pulling the trigger? I find this to be a better comparison than muzzle flip and recoil impulse. Remember muzzle flip can be tweaked with recoil springs and hand loads, if you get into it that deep. For me, the biggest thing is accuracy potential. This is why I am walking away from an XD that I dropped lots of coin on. The XD is decently accurate, but the P-0X series are more so. Let me elaborate. At 15 yards I can get a 1.5 inch group free hand (sloooww fire), with my 1911, my P-07 (DA/SA) and any revolver with a good DA pull. With the XD the best I have ever done is 3.0 inches. Obviously 3 inches is well within the A zone (or -0 of an IDPA target) but when you start moving and varying target distances are introduced that accuracy difference has led to me asking myself "was that me or the gun" when I got a close C or -1. Could the XD be made more accurate? Sure, I spoke via email with TGO about it, but at some point you have to draw the line on where you stop spending money on something to make it competitive against other equipment that is better out of the box. That is a personal decision though, and if someone was in my shoes and chose to go forward with a hard fit custom barrel, I would completely understand, especially when one considers the untold hours spent dry fire loading the XD, mags, spare parts and is facing starting over. I am considering it a learning experience, but I wish someone had told me to be more selective 14 months ago. Ultimately, you need to find someone that has a few different gun types, setup for competition and go play with them. Don't go to Joe Bob's gun range and shoot a stock model that is likely gummed up and has never been tweaked. If you are serious about a decent pistol for SSP/Production, you need to experience what the potential is, not what the stock setup is. "We now return you to your regularly scheduled program." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtturn Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 If you're used to a striker gun, use a striker gun in competition. Same for DA/SA. Get started now, don't wait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmyZip Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 Weight - this is a personal thing. Some like a gun with more nose weight and some like less. Almost no one likes a lightweight gun. The P-09 is a decent weight for a polymer gun and I feel it is well distributed. Find someone with a really nose heavy steel gun and do some dry fire transitions, say 6 reload 6. Then try the same with a polymer gun. See what you find easier to stop and start with? Which is more stable with pulling the trigger? I find this to be a better comparison than muzzle flip and recoil impulse. Remember muzzle flip can be tweaked with recoil springs and hand loads, if you get into it that deep. In production, shooting 9mm, if you have a pretty good grip, and good trigger manipulation skills, a light gun can be awesome. A quick muzzle that returns to index and is easy to transition is a plus to some people. I love a snappy, light gun. I grew up shooting a BHP which is a steel gun, and lots, literally, of surplus ammo, that 9mm is meant to run sub guns, I assure you that minor power factor 9mm is pretty anemic if you are loading it yourself. Light guns can be quite easy to shoot. I love the G17, and G34 platforms because they fit my hand perfectly, and they are very light and feel like a natural extension of my hands. I know that the heavier steel guns are getting a lot of play and coverage, but don't poo poo the idea of the light pistol. To say no one likes a light gun, well it's just not true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pointerman1967 Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 None of the CZ "P" series pistols are on the roster. The SP01 is on the roster in 9mm and is what I recently purchased for Production shooting in USPSA. It is sitting at Cajun Gun Works right now waiting for them to have time to work on it. The SP01 can be tough to find, but if you are interested in this model let me know as there is a gentleman in So Cal that will ship one to your local shop and is doing some work to take the non-CA compliant pistols work in CA (blocks the mags down to 10 rounds since the model number on the gun is the same for CA and the rest of the country). My son shoots an XD .40 Tactical and honestly, if I didn't already have the gun he would be shooting something else. The plastic guns are tough to make shoot as nice as a full metal frame pistol. Even with a tungsten guide rod it just isn't the same. If you already have something though, like others have said, just start competing now as it is too much fun to wait around for the perfect setup and you will learn quickly and likely change your mind on what you want as you hang out with other shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 since you are "currently gaining proficency in marksmenship" what type of gun do you shoot now? That is the same type of Production legal gun you should get for competition ... in the military we believe in training the same way we are going to fight .... getting ready for USPSA should be no different .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjdaniel78 Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 To say no one likes a light gun, well it's just not true. Bad elaboration and wording on my part. When I wrote light, I was trying illustrate (poorly I might add) that recoil is not that critical until you are at the extreme of lightness, i.e.: XDS45, Kahr PM9, etc. Those guns are great to carry, but I would rather shoot a G34 than a PM9 any day of the week. I believe most would agree. By contrast the recoil differences between a Stock II and a G34 are minor compared to other parameters. You are correct, the way I worded it, it's not true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 For many people, more than anything, it needs to fit you and you have to be able to grip and shoot it comfortably. Go to a gun store and pickup and handle several different brands and models. Does it fit your hand? Is your trigger finger too far in/out? With your eyes closed, raise the gun and point it. Open your eyes. Is it pointing roughly where you thought is should be? A good grip with the right angle will give you a better natural point of aim. You won't have to spend months trying to train your arm and brain to naturally put the gun where it needs to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jkasper5 Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 Don't overthink it...DA/SA is a popular choice, but so is a striker fired gun. You really can make anything work, so I'd get something with easy to find parts, like a Glock, CZ, or Beretta. Then just buy 4 extra magazines, 4 mag pouches a few cases of ammo and have fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 None of the CZ "P" series pistols are on the roster. Roster? You mean approved USPSA Production Gun List? P-09 is approved If I've misunderstood you ignore this post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtturn Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 None of the CZ "P" series pistols are on the roster. Roster? You mean approved USPSA Production Gun List? P-09 is approved If I've misunderstood you ignore this post He's talking about the Communist California gun roster where the nanny state dictates which guns they can and cannot own. *shudders* I'm glad I live in a free state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 None of the CZ "P" series pistols are on the roster. Roster? You mean approved USPSA Production Gun List? P-09 is approved If I've misunderstood you ignore this post He's talking about the Communist California gun roster where the nanny state dictates which guns they can and cannot own. *shudders* I'm glad I live in a free state. Oh, that's messed up. Never figured out why people live there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pointerman1967 Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 Because it is where I was born. Seriously, I would have left, but this is where family is. Weather is great, jobs are great and there is tons of stuff to do. Political situation sucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZoneZenSeeker Posted June 12, 2015 Author Share Posted June 12, 2015 Wow, thanks for some great feedback! I currently do have a striker fired pistol (Glock 34, Gen3). Added FO sights and did .25 cent trigger job. Didn't mention it as I did not want to influence feedback based on that. I have gotten a few general concepts from the feedback that have helped make my decision. Lighter "poly" gun will be better at moving and getting on target, but, really helps to have good grip and trigger control. The heavier DA/SA guns will help with recoil and accuracy. All good info! And thanks to cjdaniel for going into "novel mode" (in case you haven't noticed by now, I tend toward "novel mode" myself). I think I will need more than a few shots from a borrowed gun to determine what is best for me. Since I still have issues with recoil control (still on CoC grippers "trainer") and my main focus right now is to hit what I am at, I am going to try to find the best DA/SA available to me in SoCal. Thanks Graham, I will will try out the "feel for Natural Point of Aim". Once I buy new gun I will shoot the heck out of both my new gun and the Glock 34 to see which one works best for me. As a side note, the guns such as the GZ P-09 or the CZ shadow look great, but, generally not available to me. Stuff you guys take for granted, such as any Gen 4 Glock or any XDM series pistol, or, pretty much any new gun are all "off roster". LEO's can buy them and if they later decide to sell we civilians can buy them. But, you are then bidding against everyone in the state that wants one and the price we pay is twice what you guys in the "Free States" pay. Don't even get me started on the reduced round mags or the ridiculous rules on AR type "evil" rifles! OK, step off soap box now and stop whining. Back to topic.... The other concept I got a lot was "Just start shooting competitions!". Once I feel I am totally safe shooter with selected gun I will look for a SoCal match. Don't know yet if IDPA or USPSA, but, that's a future thread. Plan on finishing the NRA Pistol and Defensive Pistol qualifications that I am currently working on. Also hope to soon have private lesson(s) with a USPSA GM who also shoots a lot of IDPA.. If he thinks I am ready, then I'm a good to go! Thanks for all the feedback. BTW, it looks like CZ 75 SP-01 is on the "roster" so will start the search looking at that one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrtyWood Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 Don't know what kind of money you want to invest but a Tanfoglio Stock2 or 3 is a great DA/SA gun as well....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZoneZenSeeker Posted June 15, 2015 Author Share Posted June 15, 2015 (edited) Thanks for suggestion, looks like a great gun. Would love to be able to buy it. But, I live in California and it is not on the allowable handgun "Roster"........ Edited June 15, 2015 by AZoneZenSeeker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfinney Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 Save your money. Stick with the G34. Put all your money in ammo, matches and training. You're good to go. Later, if you just can't stand it, get a Sig P320 or a CZ SP-01 9mm with all the CGW stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneelingatlas Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 I love CZs, but if you already have a G34, just shoot that while you get a feel for completion and get to lusting after another division. You can certainly become a GM with a G34. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davsco Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 yeah if you have the g34, start with that. glock has been topping the list of the uspsa and idpa equipment surveys, so you're in good company. glockworx makes a 3 spring trigger pull lightening kit that helps. http://www.boomershooter.com/forums/index.php/topic/589-uspsa-nationals-equipment-survey-results/ http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=112540 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 That survey is a bit old isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnsons1480 Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 I love CZs, but if you already have a G34, just shoot that while you get a feel for completion and get to lusting after another division. You can certainly become a GM with a G34. I remember getting some very different advice from you that set me on my current path with my SP-01! lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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