Hypocrisy of Production

[jrbet83]

Footnote: I'm a limited shooter that reloads, so no bitterness here, just my observation.

Blew this out of the water in a hurry!

And you and this thread proved something quickly too, although it's been proven time and time again without fail. If someone has an opinion, idea, view point, gripe, or any other synonym that would generally lead to an open discussion, they must either be bitter, jealous, suck, lazy or all the above.

Just personally find it odd that 2 boxes of factory ammo, both that have been tested to produce satisfactory pf, and with one you're good to go regardless and the other you may be sol. Just depending on what name was on the box. To go even one, "what if", step further. You could have AA produce a large lot of ammo in preparation for Nationals. They take it to the match and supply the match with official match ammo. Having extra, they sell the rest at they're booth/table. Now, if their load was off (and it's happened before) the people whom bought the same lot of ammo through the program are fine. But the people who bought it at the table, aren't. Same ammo, only difference is price and a sheet of paper

Edited March 13, 2015 by jrbet83

[mgardner]

Since most (if not all) level I matches don't have a chrono check. I think the intent about "new shooter showing up with what they have" is still being met. If, after shooting local matches a shooter wants to try level II or III, he or she should then be concerned about ammo making PF.

This ^^^^^^

[teros135]

Footnote: I'm a limited shooter that reloads, so no bitterness here, just my observation.

Blew this out of the water in a hurry!

And you and this thread proved something quickly too, although it's been proven time and time again without fail. If someone has an opinion, idea, view point, gripe, or any other synonym that would generally lead to an open discussion, they must either be bitter, jealous, suck, lazy or all the above.

The assertion that people are regularly attacked or dismissed for having any idea or opinion "that would generally lead to an open discussion" seems unwarranted. There are a lot of passionate discussions here on bEnos that lead to various parties changing their minds. But this one started off with the assertion that this issue represents "hypocricy" (and attacks Production, again), so it's reasonable to expect pushback.

(Edited in an effort to be more logical and Spock-like)

Edited March 13, 2015 by teros135

[motosapiens]

Just personally find it odd that 2 boxes of factory ammo, both that have been tested to produce satisfactory pf, and with one you're good to go regardless and the other you may be sol. Just depending on what name was on the box. To go even one, "what if", step further. You could have AA produce a large lot of ammo in preparation for Nationals. They take it to the match and supply the match with official match ammo. Having extra, they sell the rest at they're booth/table. Now, if their load was off (and it's happened before) the people whom bought the same lot of ammo through the program are fine. But the people who bought it at the table, aren't. Same ammo, only difference is price and a sheet of paper

I don't find that odd. Doesn't bother me either.

[MAC702]

Production got a lot of new and less rich shooters into USPSA, competing on equal equipment footing and having fun with the rest of us.

How many of these resource-limited shooters in Production are shooting major matches and even seeing a chrono stage to have to worry about it? I've never seen a chrono stage at a local club match.

I think by the time Production shooters are seeing chrono stages, they can take the time and resources to figure out their PF and make adjustments if necessary.

[jrbet83]

I think by the time Production shooters are seeing chrono stages, they can take the time and resources to figure out their PF and make adjustments if necessary.

You'd think so, but than again USPSA just published a 2 page article on the subject

[GrumpyOne]

Discuss this all you guys want...but leave the personal attacks out of the discussion if you want the thread to stay alive.

[Sarge]

I always got a kick out of "Run what you brung" line. It should be run what you brung as long as it's legal. A first timer wants to show up and shoot with what he owns? I am fine with it but it will be used in it's appropriate division. If all he has is box ammo from walmart that makes 120 PF I will tell him eventually he will have to get with the program and get legal ammo. I'm all for recruiting new shooters but you are only new for so long.

[Sarge]

I think by the time Production shooters are seeing chrono stages, they can take the time and resources to figure out their PF and make adjustments if necessary.

You'd think so, but than again USPSA just published a 2 page article on the subject

I shoot matches with people that don't know anything at all about chrono.

[Chills1994]

Having been involved in a number of IDPA threads years ago, I have come to really hate the "i-word": intent.

IMO, USPSA production division was born out of the idea of getting cross over shooters from IDPA. In other words: capturing more market share.

USPSA production division also piggy backed on an ever growing pool of CCW'ers.

Maybe I am just cynical, but whenever I open a particular medium, I start thinking "What are they trying to sell me now?"

Maybe that was the intent of the article: to sell chronographs and/or reloading presses.

I think Front Sight magazine still has a letters to the editor section. Maybe our OP should send his comments there?

I think it is highly doubtful that anybody of any leadership position in USPSA is sayin that you must buy a chrono or a reloading press.

[teros135]

Didn't the same issue of Front Sight also have a Equipment Survey at the 2014 Handgun Nationals that noted that 30% of Production shooters there used commercial ammo? Sounds like a fair number don't either need or want to reload. These are, of course, folks that have been around a bit and have gotten to the Nationals. About half use steel guns, half polymer (52% vs 48%). Most use heavier bullets. I know a number of folks that use commercial reloads/remanufactured such as Freedom Munitions, in all bullet weights, or reloads from a local shooter/reloader here.

On the other hand, 16% of Limited shooters and 7% of open shooters use commercial ammo, which makes sense considering their equipment and focus.

[teros135]

I think by the time Production shooters are seeing chrono stages, they can take the time and resources to figure out their PF and make adjustments if necessary.

You'd think so, but than again USPSA just published a 2 page article on the subject

Hmmm. I thought "The Chronoman Report" was a regular column in Front Sight. I like reading his stuff but don't agree with all of it. He dedicated two paragraphs to the issue of power factor in factory ammo (and WWB tends to run somewhat slow, as has been noted in other BE forums), and his main point was "don't trust anyone when it comes to the performance of your ammo in your gun ... Use a chronograph initially, and again when anything changes ... If you don't have a chronograph, get one! Can't afford one? Sure the expense with a friend or two or maybe the club you belong to has one or can get one for club use". He provides solutions, not just problems.

I also noticed that he said "During my career running chronographs, I've come across several instances were factory ammo just didn't measure up". Two points from this. Chronographs aren't usually run in Level I (and aren't required, per the rules), so this has to be referring to higher-level matches, not locals. At Level II and up we can expect chronoing, and if we don't we aren't paying attention. Also, he said "several instances", which doesn't really sound like a tidal wave of Production shooters being sent to the showers (or the limbo of "shooting for fun").

I know that before my first Major I made darn sure my ammo was making PF, and even in Level I local matches when I run my M&P Shield I don't use WWB or FM reloads (which won't make Minor) but instead run Speer Lawman 147 gr or handloads that make 125.

[Sarge]

When I started reloading I was told to get a chrono or else I had no idea what the ammo was doing out if my gun. Same holds true for factory ammo. This game gas a rule about power factor and its up to the shooter to check it somehow

[crotchThrower]

min pf is 125. Anything below that, usually comes from reloads. And those in turn have a tough time knocking down steel. So one way to discouraged anyone shooting below pf in production is to ensure your steel popper are calibrated correctly.

Edited March 14, 2015 by crotchThrower

[Sarge]

Recommended PF for calibration ammo is 115-125 so that really won't work.

[mgardner]

It's interesting that the original premise presented in this discussion was gun related and immediately switched to ammo.

Here's the original quote made. "That wasn't the intent of production. Production is so shooters can show up with their stock guns and compete".

[Chills1994]

Key word being "can".

Versus: shooters may show up with their $1,800 unicorn guns and powder puff reloads and be competitive.

[bthoefer]

I just shot a major (Alabama Sectional) in production with factory ammo. Made 141 power factor using Blazer Brass.

In the past I had shot PMC bronze and it consistently chronoed at 130 power factor out of my 5 inch M&P (two identical guns actually that chronoed the same).

I shot blazer because I switched to a CZ with a shorter barrel and didn't want to risk going sub minor.

I don't own a chrono and didn't have time to test the PMC in the new gun with a borrowed chrono. I prefer the feel of the hotter ammo anyway.

It can be done with relatively cheap factory ammo, all you have to do is pay attention.

[Malarkey]

There is also the possibility of dishonest people putting lower powered handloads in a winchester white box and then claiming them to be factory. There would be no way to verify the identity of the actual factory ammunition beyond a reasonable doubt.

[warpspeed]

Just personally find it odd that 2 boxes of factory ammo, both that have been tested to produce satisfactory pf, and with one you're good to go regardless and the other you may be sol. Just depending on what name was on the box.

Follow the money

[Dutchman195]

How does the chronoman KNOW that the ammo in that white box is really factory ammo not something you downloaded and repacked? How does the chrono man know that your barrel is the factory barrel not an aftermarket one that for whatever reason is slower then the factory ammo?

Should a 2" barrel gun using the lightest possible "factory" ammo automatically meet power factor?

How does he know I dont have 8 rounds predeterminedly picked out for chrono, that are loaded differently than the stuff I shoot at the match? If integrity is being brought into the discussion, than the mods may as well lock this thread now, because cheating at chrono is absolutely EASY if that's the type of person you are.

While Cheating the Chrono is easy. I was under the impression they can, at any time, come and ask for ammo out of a mag and chrono it again? If a competitor questions something or an RO questions something, eye brows would start raising. The chrono dude would be right there to grab your mag at the "unload and show clear" and walk you back to the chrono station for a random test.

Its a sport and the Chrono is another aspect of the game we play. Trying to get as close to the min power factor as we can without going under. Just like how Nascar people put just enough fuel in the car to save on weight. Cutting it close provides more reward (in theory)

As far as newbies shooting a chrono at a match....I know absolutely nothing about basketball, why would I go play in my first NBA game tomorrow without reading over the rule book? PF is a very easy concept and takes very little understanding. Most ranges (in my experience) have a rental Chrono you can use to test stuff. If not reach out and ask someone at a local match. Newbies learn by asking questions. In my mind there is ZERO reason to walk into a match and have no idea what a chrono is.

[JAFO]

It's ultimately up to the shooter to know whether his/her particular gun/ammo combination will make PF. At a Level I match with no chrono, if the shooter sees an advertised velocity that should make PF, he/she has no reason to think it won't, but they should be sure of that before attending a LII or higher match.

I bought some Prvi Partizan 124gr 9mm FMJ ammo for my Dad to use at a local match when he comes down. Advertised velocity is 1099 fps, according to Midway's website. With a 124gr bullet, that stuff should be putting out a 136 PF. I chrono'd it out of my P226 he'll be using just out of curiosity. It made 126! Now, IF Prvi Partizan used SAAMI specs to measure that velocity, according to the standard on the SAAMI website, the test barrel should have been 4.000 +/- 0.010". My P226 has a 4.4" barrel, so either they didn't use SAAMI spec equipment (it is a US national organization, not a Czech one), or my barrel is just waaay shot out. I don't think it's my barrel.

A lot of the most affordable plinking FMJ ammo available these days isn't made in the US. It is reasonable to think that advertised velocities for that ammo aren't going to hold true in any particular gun. And even if the ammo is made in the US, the cheaper lines aren't made to the same tolerances. So while the average velocity advertised may make PF, the lot you bought may not, or it may not in your gun if the barrel length and rifling type don't match SAAMI spec.

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

How does the chronoman KNOW that the ammo in that white box is really factory ammo not something you downloaded and repacked? How does the chrono man know that your barrel is the factory barrel not an aftermarket one that for whatever reason is slower then the factory ammo?

Should a 2" barrel gun using the lightest possible "factory" ammo automatically meet power factor?

How does he know I dont have 8 rounds predeterminedly picked out for chrono, that are loaded differently than the stuff I shoot at the match? If integrity is being brought into the discussion, than the mods may as well lock this thread now, because cheating at chrono is absolutely EASY if that's the type of person you are.

Not when I do chrono. I choose the ammo when you arrive either from your belt or your bag my choice.

As for the original post, Production regulates the firearm, not the ammo (except for power factor). It is up to the shooter to determine if his ammo firearm combination makes power factor. It someone has no idea if they make power factor, they are opening themselves up for a rude awakening.

I ran into it with a shooter and a Sig 229 using Winchester white Box 115gr ammo. When he showed up at chrono, I knew he wasn't going to make it but he had no idea.

[Sarge]

How does the chronoman KNOW that the ammo in that white box is really factory ammo not something you downloaded and repacked? How does the chrono man know that your barrel is the factory barrel not an aftermarket one that for whatever reason is slower then the factory ammo?

Should a 2" barrel gun using the lightest possible "factory" ammo automatically meet power factor?

How does he know I dont have 8 rounds predeterminedly picked out for chrono, that are loaded differently than the stuff I shoot at the match? If integrity is being brought into the discussion, than the mods may as well lock this thread now, because cheating at chrono is absolutely EASY if that's the type of person you are.

Not when I do chrono. I choose the ammo when you arrive either from your belt or your bag my choice.

That would be a first for me. At every level II and up I have been to shooters are given bags on the first stage to put chrono ammo in. It is collected by staff and taken to chrono. I can't imagine the backlog at chrono when bullets have to be pulled and weighed while the squad is there. That chore should be complete well before the squad shows up.

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

How does the chronoman KNOW that the ammo in that white box is really factory ammo not something you downloaded and repacked? How does the chrono man know that your barrel is the factory barrel not an aftermarket one that for whatever reason is slower then the factory ammo?

Should a 2" barrel gun using the lightest possible "factory" ammo automatically meet power factor?

How does he know I dont have 8 rounds predeterminedly picked out for chrono, that are loaded differently than the stuff I shoot at the match? If integrity is being brought into the discussion, than the mods may as well lock this thread now, because cheating at chrono is absolutely EASY if that's the type of person you are.

Not when I do chrono. I choose the ammo when you arrive either from your belt or your bag my choice.

That would be a first for me. At every level II and up I have been to shooters are given bags on the first stage to put chrono ammo in. It is collected by staff and taken to chrono. I can't imagine the backlog at chrono when bullets have to be pulled and weighed while the squad is there. That chore should be complete well before the squad shows up.

Bullets pull fast. Never had a back up yet. BUT, always have adequate help.